A low cost, all European, manned launcher.

[Urwumpe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGClark

 Time will tell.

Bob Clark

Exactly.

It leaves the question, if you could apply agile process management strategies from software development in the IT to spaceflight or hardware-heavy projects in general. Hardware does not really like refactoring, while software can tolerate it under limited circumstances.

As you can see in many other examples, it is always better to work with small steps, but you can also see that SpaceX skipped the small steps for the big goals and PR.

[RGClark]

Saw this mentioned on another forum:

30th January 2013, 16:45
New Ariane Europe cheap super rocket.

Quote:

In seven years, Europe's new super rocket Ariane 6 stand for the first time. It is much cheaper than its predecessor - and probably bury the dream of your own human spaceflight By Gerhard Hegmann, Munich.

http://translate.google.com/translat...8.html&act=url

Perhaps someone here can provide a better translation than Google.

Bob Clark

[MattBaker]

The introduction talks about how the Ariane 6 will be "much much cheaper" than the Ariane 5 and how this is going to bury manned spaceflight possibilities.
Then they give the numbers on the Ariane 5, 60% of all new contracts on communication satellites and how it was driven by technology in the 80s, while the Ariane 6 is now driven by money. Then there's this "triple-seven-concept", in 7 years, 7 mT payload and €70 million per launch.
Then they start with SpaceX and how fast new competitors can enter spaceflight and how SpaceX's prices (subsidised by NASA) are a big competition for Arianespace since contractors are interested in how much they pay [//which is wrong in my point of view, they also decide by reliability (otherwise Sea Launch would be...) and political stuff, why else is Astra etc launching Ariane?]. Lastly this paragraph talks about the Ariane 5 using €120 million per year on taxpayer's money and since Europe isn't that solvent like 30 years ago it's all about cost saving now.
Then they talk about the regional differences in the technology of the Ariane 6 with France and Italy building the solid stages while Germany is specialized on liquid ones and how instead of 6 or 7 double-launches by the A5 they're planning with a dozen of launches due to the one satellite per launch thing. Because of that they also make the maths about two satellites - €200 million and one satellite - €70 million while talking about SpaceX without even noticing that high production rates like 12/year could help drop the prizes too.
And then lastly they come up with manned launching stuff: Due to that cost saving strategy they're losing that possibility, while the A5 was developed with the idea of the Hermes spaceplane the A6 is developed with the idea of cheap launches. But they quickly end with that topic and rather talk about the A5 ME and how the R&D of the A6 will cost €4-5 billion, how it will be an expendable launch system that could render the Soyuz (which price is controlled by the Russians) from Korou unnecessary.
And in the end they talk about the political mills whose companies is going to build which parts of the rockets, something that should get decided in 2014.

[Urwumpe]

Well... not much new, a lot of sloppy journalism there, mostly based on the press conference of Le Gall. Who again boasted the French horn of "It would be cheaper producing the Ariane in one country". Of course, this would then also mean the rocket would have to become WAAAAY cheaper, because France can't afford such a high contribution to the ESA budget.

[RGClark]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattBaker

 ...
And then lastly they come up with manned launching stuff: Due to that cost saving strategy they're losing that possibility, while the A5 was developed with the idea of the Hermes spaceplane the A6 is developed with the idea of cheap launches. But they quickly end with that topic and rather talk about the A5 ME and how the R&D of the A6 will cost €4-5 billion, how it will be an expendable launch system that could render the Soyuz (which price is controlled by the Russians) from Korou unnecessary...

The big point I took from the article is that the writer seems to be lamenting the demise of the dream of a European manned launch capability.

Bob Clark

[Notebook]

European maybe, but we British don't give up easily, sometimes:

http://www.sptv.demon.co.uk/britishspace/

N.

[Urwumpe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGClark

 The big point I took from the article is that the writer seems to be lamenting the demise of the dream of a European manned launch capability.

Bob Clark

Not really lamenting. It is rather a "Finally they removed the corpse from the room".

Germany is favorable for manned spaceflight, but also aware that we have not come forward for the past 40 years in it, because most of the other European countries in the ESA are against it. Germany already has the EAC and ESOC, that is already bad enough for ESA politics.

[MattBaker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwumpe

 Germany is favorable for manned spaceflight

I would rather say we're as favorable for manned spaceflight as we are for renewable energy. Cool, as long as I don't have to pay for it...