[Project] Orbiter Battle Simulation Project Needs Developers!

[RisingFury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polaris

 Is OBSP ready for further testing- or is it finished?

It's not finished. Not by a long shot. But we've made good progress in the past weeks and we'll release a new version soon. Don't ask when, not even I know

[garyw]

Mod Note: This thread has now been split in two.
The Space weapons discussion has been moved here.

[Eli13]

now will this have any larger than xr-5 sized ships for (kind-of) capital ship combat?

[escapetomsfate]

In the last year, Orbiter Battle Simulation Project (OBSP) has seen a number of changes. First of all, the project underwent a complete code rewrite, the result of which is now modular ("component" based) and much more stable than previous versions. From these stable foundations, we have continued work on an addon for Orbiter that will encompass not only everything required for combat in Orbiter, but a generic (and vastly improved) autopilot/AI system, an expandable damage model and an entire vessel superstructure for developers.

RisingFury has been hard at work creating combat autopilots. These autopilots are able to destroy a specified target using several different weapons - Air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles and freefall bombs have all been implemented and are available to OBSP's autopilots. Eventually these autopilots will be controlled by an AI system (which is currently in the works) - but for now, OBSP's lua interface is used, which integrates seamlessly into Orbiter's own scripting system.

Although progress on OBSP is swift, we are need of help. We are in need of C++ developers to create an open source and generic aircraft platform for OBSP. This will require a "magic" DLL which would read parameters from a
CFG file, so future OBSP developers can create planes with little or no knowledge of C++ - only the knowledge of aerodynamics and mechanics would be required. We already have this kind of system for weapons... developers only need to create a config file and a mesh for their missile/bomb, and OBSP's DLLs do the rest. We believe having a separate developer creating the DLLs for the aircraft would allow for a more feature packed platform, and an
earlier release!

Some videos of the new OBSP:

RisingFury's new combat autopilots:

‪OBSP - Combat autopilots‬‏ - YouTube

‪OBSP - Combat autopilots‬‏ - YouTube

RisingFury explaining the need for and role of future developers:

‪OBSP - Call to arms‬‏ - YouTube

‪OBSP - Call to arms‬‏ - YouTube

Many thanks to RisingFury, TNeo and Loru.

[Eagle1Division]

I'm not a programmer, but I can make models, and IIRC Orbiter models can be made with Gmax...

Hmm. I think you should question whether or not tanks and such would be necessary. Honestly, I find it a bit odd focus so far has been on aerial combat. There are plenty of flight sims, tank games, etc. out there, but what would be extremely unique is a space combat sim that's realistic, like orbiter.

At least IMO, that would make the most sense, I mean, after all, Orbiter is a space sim, not really a flight sim... IMO the concern should be ASAT's, not SAM's.

And IMO explosion effects should always have at least two particles: The fire, since it must have additive rendering, and the smoke, which would use alpha. But Additive is VERY important to get the fire to look good...

That sounded kinda cynical. I do like the idea and what's being done, though, those are just some comments. It is exciting.

Since there's air to air missiles, have you considered incorporating some of the aircraft addons? It would be really interesting to see a Delta-Glider go up against a Mig-31, or an F-15 launch an ASAT at a DG that's in orbit.

But the funnest thing, IMO, would be orbiting above a battle site where F-22's are engaging Su-27's and advanced Chinese jets, and popping jets like balloons with an IR laser from orbit. The challenge would be to get the most kills and turn the tide of the battle with what little time you have before you pass the target, while shooting down ASAT salvos before they hit you. Then you'd have to do a burn to change your LAN or INC to pass over the battle site again, and do it again, if there's any targets left.


I'll Echo Eli here, will there be any capital ships? Will the team take advice from the Space Combat Techniques Discussion, and implement realistic space-to-space combat? That's the biggie I'm excited about . I guess the hard part would be getting missiles to work by orbital dynamics. I've done a good amount of work on that, if I can find the old notes...

[Ark]

Seriously, this needs ASATs. Atmospheric flight is a small fraction of the Orbiter experience, I want to plot a high-energy rendezvous with a target in orbit over Io and nail it with an ASAT as I fly by with a relative velocity of about 30 km/s.

[Tacolev]

Hell, to take real advantage of orbiter: Where are the Nukes?

[RisingFury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 I'm not a programmer, but I can make models, and IIRC Orbiter models can be made with Gmax...

Yep, you can make models for Orbiter with GMax.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 Hmm. I think you should question whether or not tanks and such would be necessary. Honestly, I find it a bit odd focus so far has been on aerial combat. There are plenty of flight sims, tank games, etc. out there, but what would be extremely unique is a space combat sim that's realistic, like orbiter.

Tanks and other ground vehicles are still a long way off. First we want to perfect atmospheric and high altitude combat, but we do want to get a few SAM sites in orbiter soon, as well as some realistic planes. The reason we're going through the atmosphere before entering orbit is that we want to have a good system in place for the autopilots and AI. It will be much easier to transition to orbit when all that his done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 At least IMO, that would make the most sense, I mean, after all, Orbiter is a space sim, not really a flight sim... IMO the concern should be ASAT's, not SAM's.

ASATs will come soon. Possibly even in the upcoming release. You can't just make an ASAT and call it combat for Orbiter. You need a platform to launch it from - like a plane, you need a target to shoot at and then you need to start thinking about possible countermeasures to defend against it all.

I think the other units shooting back at you gives real depth to this addon. There have been attempts to implement various parts of combat in Orbiter (AA missile, UCGO nuke, Bomb MFD and failed attempts at an ASAT), but none of these addons has managed to combine everything and add an AI to the the other units. We have!

The next step from here are missile countermeasures. Flares and chaff. That way every missile fired won't result in a hit on enemy target and we can start dogfighting. I also have to write some tactics for the aerial combat autopilot too, other then just trying to follow the target.

The ultimate goal of this addon is to span everything from ground combat to interplanetary combat. It's still a long way off, but we're persistent. We're looking for developers that have enough patience to see this through to the end and not just jump at the quick result like "I WANT SOME ASATS!!!!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 And IMO explosion effects should always have at least two particles: The fire, since it must have additive rendering, and the smoke, which would use alpha. But Additive is VERY important to get the fire to look good...

Well, Orbiter wasn't deigned with combat in mind, so we have to stick to its limitations. The explosion effect is in two parts, an "emissive" explosion and a "diffuse" smoke puff...
The configuration for the weapon allows you to choose both fire and smoke, fire only, smoke only or none. As time goes on, I'll program more types of explosion effects, so we can simulate effects made by cluster bombs, for example and to have some variety. But for now I think we're ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 That sounded kinda cynical. I do like the idea and what's being done, though, those are just some comments. It is exciting.

We do appreciate feedback. We can only grow through constructive criticism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 Since there's air to air missiles, have you considered incorporating some of the aircraft addons? It would be really interesting to see a Delta-Glider go up against a Mig-31, or an F-15 launch an ASAT at a DG that's in orbit.

Kev33 graciously allowed us the use of his aircraft models. That is why we're calling for help! I'm busy with the atuopilots and escapetomsfate is busy with the OBSP core. We'd really need someone to take this work off our hands and start building planes.

Ultimate goal of this addon would be to contain both current technology aircraft, as well as future fictional ones. We probably can't mix technologies if they're so different, but it does allow for current era warfare, or future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 But the funnest thing, IMO, would be orbiting above a battle site where F-22's are engaging Su-27's and advanced Chinese jets, and popping jets like balloons with an IR laser from orbit. The challenge would be to get the most kills and turn the tide of the battle with what little time you have before you pass the target, while shooting down ASAT salvos before they hit you. Then you'd have to do a burn to change your LAN or INC to pass over the battle site again, and do it again, if there's any targets left.

That is one of the possible battle scenarios. Like I said, the AI vessels really give another dimension to Orbiter combat. You won't just shoot at them, they'll shoot back at you too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1Division

 I'll Echo Eli here, will there be any capital ships? Will the team take advice from the Space Combat Techniques Discussion, and implement realistic space-to-space combat? That's the biggie I'm excited about . I guess the hard part would be getting missiles to work by orbital dynamics. I've done a good amount of work on that, if I can find the old notes...

Yes, we could have capital ships and we will take tips from various discussions. The aim is to create realistic space combat and not just turn Orbiter into the next X-universe style shoot-em-up game.



The community needs to have patience. I joined OBSP two years ago, offering my assistance with the project. Since then the development of this addon has been really focused and structured, but still we're only now at the position to offer some interesting content to the user.

OBSP is a large project and right from the start we knew it will take a lot of time to make. We're both students and do this in our spare time, but we'll get it done eventually.

[Eagle1Division]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RisingFury

 Yep, you can make models for Orbiter with GMax.

I'll poke around the forums and find out how to export stuff to Orbiter, I'm actually working on something right now... I don't know if I could pull off the complex aerodynamic shapes of aircraft, I could try, but I would like to give capital ships a shot (Pun not intended, but is relished anyways). I am starting into a new way of modelling, though, and maybe I could probably give those complex aerodynamic shapes a shot. It's hard to go too far off when using blueprint reference images .

Quote:

Originally Posted by RisingFury

 Tanks and other ground vehicles are still a long way off. First we want to perfect atmospheric and high altitude combat, but we do want to get a few SAM sites in orbiter soon, as well as some realistic planes. The reason we're going through the atmosphere before entering orbit is that we want to have a good system in place for the autopilots and AI. It will be much easier to transition to orbit when all that his done.

Okay, that's what I was really wondering about. That makes good sense now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RisingFury

 ASATs will come soon. Possibly even in the upcoming release. You can't just make an ASAT and call it combat for Orbiter. You need a platform to launch it from - like a plane, you need a target to shoot at and then you need to start thinking about possible countermeasures to defend against it all.

ASM-135 launched from the F-15 Eagle
In the "Test Launches" section it has a neat little bit on launch procedure:

Quote:

On 13 September 1985, Maj. Wilbert D. "Doug" Pearson, flying the "Celestial Eagle" F-15A 76-0084 launched an ASM-135 ASAT about 200 miles (322 km) west of Vandenberg Air Force Base and destroyed the Solwind P78-1 satellite flying at an altitude of 345 miles (555 km). Prior to the launch the F-15 flying at Mach 1.22 executed a 3.8g zoom climb at an angle of 65 degrees. The ASM-134 ASAT was automatically launched at 38,100 ft while the F-15 was flying at Mach .934.[7] The 30 lb (13.6 kg) MHV collided with the 2,000 lb (907 kg) Solwind P78-1 satellite at closing velocity of 15,000 mph (24,140 km/h).

I realize you're very busy right now, and this will wait awhile, but I thought maybe this could be a bit helpful?...

Flares and chaffs apply to aerial combat, but for space, I think countermeasures could go in the Space Combat Techniques Discussion, which I'll kind of urge people to join in on to sort of "peer-review" my ideas, add their own, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RisingFury

 I think the other units shooting back at you gives real depth to this addon. There have been attempts to implement various parts of combat in Orbiter (AA missile, UCGO nuke, Bomb MFD and failed attempts at an ASAT), but none of these addons has managed to combine everything and add an AI to the the other units. We have!

The next step from here are missile countermeasures. Flares and chaff. That way every missile fired won't result in a hit on enemy target and we can start dogfighting. I also have to write some tactics for the aerial combat autopilot too, other then just trying to follow the target.

Very crude attempts compared to this, indeed! Not only does this encompass everything that's been done before, but most of all - it adds AI! That's what amazes me.
And seeing as so far there's no multiplayer in Orbiter that I know of, is quiet necessary...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RisingFury

 Kev33 graciously allowed us the use of his aircraft models. That is why we're calling for help! I'm busy with the atuopilots and escapetomsfate is busy with the OBSP core. We'd really need someone to take this work off our hands and start building planes.

3d models, code or both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RisingFury

 The community needs to have patience. I joined OBSP two years ago, offering my assistance with the project. Since then the development of this addon has been really focused and structured, but still we're only now at the position to offer some interesting content to the user.

OBSP is a large project and right from the start we knew it will take a lot of time to make. We're both students and do this in our spare time, but we'll get it done eventually.

Two years ago, and two people. I can certainly see the need for recruiting! I have no knowledge of code, but I can model. I've just started into some more advanced techniques, so maybe I could give aircraft a try. I can model and UV map, but I can't make texture images.

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ark

 Seriously, this needs ASATs. Atmospheric flight is a small fraction of the Orbiter experience, I want to plot a high-energy rendezvous with a target in orbit over Io and nail it with an ASAT as I fly by with a relative velocity of about 30 km/s.

OT: Recently I tried to fly to Europa, only to realize waaay too late that I had a fly-by velocity of 40 km/s, and I helplessly shot by it at that insane speed. The next time I tried to calculate my "braking" distance, and start the engines that far away, but I ended up not making it halfway there. Argh, I can't wait for calculus this year. Spaceflight isn't easy with just advanced Algebra

[escapetomsfate]

It seems most people are wondering why we haven't been developing any kind of space warfare yet.
I think really there's two main reasons:

Firstly, we needed the core functions in place first before we even thought about which type of weapons to create. Once these functions were done, it seemed a lot easier to test them out with simple freefall bombs (no guidance needed) over ASATs or anything of the sort (which would undoubtedly need a lot of time to create the guidance system just to hit the target).

The other reason is how undefined space warfare is once you get past the level of ASATs. There are many, many ideas floating around on what form(s) it could take (as proven by the 15 page threads on here that spawn surprisingly quickly as soon as someone mentions "space combat"). We could spend time developing a certain idea or "technique", but whatever we choose would only be scratching the surface (apologies for the cliché) of a vast array of ideas... OBSP hopefully will be able to simulate some of these ideas, but first it needs to start with Earth bound aerial combat - because we know exactly what happens in it...

[Raven]

Hi everyone. Great to see people pushing the boundaries of Orbiter's possibilities! The core sim has so much potential it's almost scary. OBSP could end up being the most outstanding 'game' ever, especially with MP support. Anything I can do to help? I haven't learned how to code (yet), but can do some modeling/texturing/uv mapping/testing.

[RisingFury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven

 Hi everyone. Great to see people pushing the boundaries of Orbiter's possibilities! The core sim has so much potential it's almost scary. OBSP could end up being the most outstanding 'game' ever, especially with MP support. Anything I can do to help? I haven't learned how to code (yet), but can do some modeling/texturing/uv mapping/testing.

Sure. If you can mesh and texture your own models and if you can do low poly modeling, then you can help out

[Loru]

I suggest fidling with this explosion.

3 or 4 particle emiters placed around mesh
(within 5 or 6 meters from center) with growrate of 300 (speed of sound for fireball)

But as usuall that's my opinion.

[RisingFury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loru

 I suggest fidling with this explosion.

3 or 4 particle emiters placed around mesh
(within 5 or 6 meters from center) with growrate of 300 (speed of sound for fireball)

But as usuall that's my opinion.

Yea, the explosions, like everything else, needs to be fiddled with. Currently it's just a simple one. One emitter for the fireball that expands quickly and disappears quickly and another for smoke that expands slowly and persists longer.

We value your opinion and constructive criticism and thanks for the texture

[Rise and Shine]

Hi, I would like to contribute if all your slots are not closed. I can do meshes and beta testing, but I don't know progamming.