Is Orbiter dying a slow death ??? - Page 2 - Orbiter-Forum

fausto · 11-28-2011, 11:13 AM

I can tell you what i think according to my Forum Orbiter Italia experience:

I think that development is not seen by a "team" point of view.. i mean that most of new addons are made by one person, and we know how complex an avanced development could be.. great add-ons are always created by the experience and passion of more people, like AMSO. I think that the fact to be in a team gives developers the will to work at the best...

I don't think Orbiter is dying.. with new private space access like Dragon and SpaceShip Two and new Orion capsule for dep space exploration, i'm sure the interest for Orbiter will rise up again!!

Codz · 11-28-2011, 11:51 AM

I don't see why you'd say US spaceflight is over. You've got SpaceX, Orion/SLS, and the Boeing CST. For unmanned missions you've got MSL, Juno, and GRAIL. That doesn't seem very over to me.

Moach · 11-28-2011, 11:52 AM

i often think Orbiter has the potential to become a largely accepted general flight simulation tool, if a few items could be produced (all part of my list of addons-to-do):

- a CFG-based way to create more involved DVC's, even for already existing ships (the universal dynamic virtual cockpit project)

- a proper ingame universal stack configuration tool, to allow users to try their own combinations of launch vehicles and cargo (the starport project)

- a decent realtime photoreal scenery streaming device, that downloads images from geographic imagery servers and composes ground tiles from those - and possibly srtm elevation data (the geo-gen project)

- a volumetric clouds and weather rendering module - to turn that thin cloud layer into something that you can fly through (this could include moving waves on water)

....that last one would require some DX11 graphics client support, particularly for addon shaders access and stuff *hint* :wink:

this weekend, i was even thinking of how one would code an FSX addon compatibility module, to load FlightSim aircraft and stuff right into Orbiter... and i find that this is actually doable

so yeah, if i had enough able time to have my way with it - i'd code Orbiter into a full-featured alternative for FSX...
but well, i find myself stripped of that most basic requirement much more often than i'd like.... (could anyone spare me a million dollars, please?)

so have patience

Orbiter has always been a "slowly-but-surely" type deal.... every now and then, it gets a kick of enthusiasm and a lot of new coll things appear (strangely related to Martins work cycle, for some unclear reason), but it's normally slow like this....

it's not dieing, really... it's just in "chill time" mode... and it's been slower than this some time before, it happens

things will pick up - surely enough

Screamer7 · 11-28-2011, 11:58 AM

I wanted to put up the same thread some weeks ago, but did not do that. I visit the Orbiter Hanger website almost everyday. There is an endless stream of XR2 and XR5 skins. Once in a while there is an exiting add on. But the add ons had really dried up in some ways. It looks like the add on developers are loosing interest in Orbiter.
I remember how exited I was when David anounced that the autofcs for his newest Shuttle fleet is in the pipeline. But nothing really happened.
I remember that when NASA or other space agency plans to launch a program, an add on was released before the mission even started.

**Urwumpe** · 11-28-2011, 12:00 PM

Yes, Orbiter is dead - at least for Yoda, who can complain about other people not producing enough add-ons per month, regardless that his own output is pretty marginal.

Really, I really lack the proper words here to describe what I am thinking. I don't want to say that all should be making add-ons. I know that this will only end in much more repaints of the XR2. But I think that the Orbiter community lives and dies by the actions of the people inside it. And this involves you (the person on the other side of the screen). If you want high quality add-ons, you either have to wait patiently for them to come around, or make them yourself. The first step is always the hardest.

**orb** · 11-28-2011, 12:14 PM

Orbiter isn't dying. There are new public betas released (last was at the beginning of November), DirectX 9.0 and DirectX 11/10 graphics clients are being developed. I can't see how Orbiter is dying, at all.

Moach · 11-28-2011, 12:16 PM

wanna hear a story?

back in '03, i was desperately searching for a proper 737 addon for FS2004... there wasn't any... (there was PMDG, but it had quite a brutal price tag)

so i waited.... me and my brother HarvesteR, we waited....

then patience ran out....

we fired up gMax (3dsMax's little brother) and started modelling - with very little clue of what we were doing, really - to such an extent that things i model today in 10 minutes required several days of work to achieve...

about a year later - the "737 experience" was out...

and at the time - it was heralded as a formidable addon, to which countless repaints were made (i tried to collect them all, but things got way outta hand eventually)

i didn't know what i was doing - not even how on earth i'd tackle the next big thing that had to be done.... but one hurdle at a time, it got done - even if sometimes i'm amazed that it did, looking back at it

and then guess what - me and HarvesteR discovered a talent for making things for games... when we found out that there was a university where we could major in game design - it was a no-brainer! - two weeks after, we were enrolled!

and today - we made our carreers out of it - right now i'm at work programming games (well, i'm actually writing this, but i'll get back to coding shortly), and HarvesteR is out in Mexico making KSP - which was half my own idea (tho i'm still trying to squeeze him for a proper acknoledgement)

so if you ever find yourself thinking "ah, this whatever could be better if someone made whatever addon" or anything of that sort -- just remember

that someone might as well be YOU

and you may end up enjoying it quite a lot

**Notebook** · 11-28-2011, 12:54 PM

Must say, I don't any impression of Orbiter dying, just the converse. Its the only thing that motivates me to attempt any kind of programming, graphics, physics, maths.

One program can bring all those together, how can you get bored with it?
I'll admit all my add-ons are for personal interest, but if not for Orbiter, I'd just be reading books about the early UK space program, not trying to simulate it.

N.

agentgonzo · 11-28-2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codz

I don't see why you'd say US spaceflight is over.

Unfortunately, for most people US Spaceflight ≡ Space Shuttle.

Whilst this is a terrible understanding of the situation, the ending of the STS program has resulted in a lack of excitement among many (including me) with space exploration.

Nasa has a much better publicity machine for the English speaking world than Roscomos, JAXA, China (I don't know what their space agency is called) and spaceflight will always be more exciting for humans than sending probes/automated vehicles into space because you know there are people on board which you can imagine are like you and this is more engaging than a bunch of wires and metal. Nasa launches are easier to watch via NasaTV and the various web channels devoted to it than Roscomos launches and make more camera angles etc available for launches making it more exciting to watch.

With the end of the space shuttle programme, all this will be drastically reduced for the next n years, which means people's lack of excitement. Also, the shuttle is more exciting to watch because you can see it fly like an aeroplane and glide to landing, rather than a capsule which just kind of falls. Bottom line, the space shuttle was the most exciting thing to watch launch/fly barring probably Apollo and without it spaceflight just isn't as exciting for the general public. This translates to less excitement in orbiter. And people want (in part) to play orbiter to fly the shuttle as flying a capsule isn't as exciting and not something the general populous can appreciate (as the see shuttle as aeroplane in space and can relate to aeroplanes).

In short, spaceflight will get more exciting again in future, but there is no way that it's as exciting right now as it was 6 months ago when the shuttle was still flying.

**Urwumpe** · 11-28-2011, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agentgonzo

In short, spaceflight will get more exciting again in future, but there is no way that it's as exciting right now as it was 6 months ago when the shuttle was still flying.

We'll talk about that in the future.

**Yoda** · 11-28-2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwumpe

Yes, Orbiter is dead - at least for Yoda, who can complain about other people not producing enough add-ons per month, regardless that his own output is pretty marginal.

Really, I really lack the proper words here to describe what I am thinking. I don't want to say that all should be making add-ons. I know that this will only end in much more repaints of the XR2. But I think that the Orbiter community lives and dies by the actions of the people inside it. And this involves you (the person on the other side of the screen). If you want high quality add-ons, you either have to wait patiently for them to come around, or make them yourself. The first step is always the hardest.

Leave it up to Urwumpe to turn a general question into a personal attack........

I agree with your overall point but not all of us have the skills, time or know-how to produce add-ons ( or post negative responses to every thread on Orbiter Forum).......
Many of us are dependend on the great skills that some of us posses and are truly thankfull for the work they produce !

**Urwumpe** · 11-28-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Leave it up to Urwumpe to turn a general question into a personal attack........

Read it as a personal criticism. It was at least not meant to be a direct attack against your person, since your user name is pretty replaceable in the past years of such posts appearing. It could have been somebody else and it had been other people already in the past.

Die größten Kritiker der Elche waren früher selber welche.

PS: Skills can be acquired. 99% of what I can do in Orbiter are not a gift of my parents, but what I had to do because it had to be done one day... I was simply forced to learn.

T.Neo · 11-28-2011, 01:30 PM

If Orbiter is supposedly dying:

1. Where are the statistics that show the "population" of Orbinauts is declining?

2. Where are the statistics that show that activity on the forums and such is declining?

3. Where are the statistics that show that less effort and time are being put into addon creation?

4. Where are the statistics that show that the popularity of Orbiter is declining?

5. What indicates that the devleopment of Orbiter is lagging or has ceased?

Sorry, but without these, I don't know how you can say "Orbiter is dying a slow death". Apart from the yearly cycle of changing inactivity (motivated primarily because of the fact that most orbinauts hail from countries in the northern hemisphere) and the fact that not much is happening in the spaceflight arena leading to perhaps a decrease in enthusiasm, there is nothing to suggest that interest in or effort towards Orbiter is waning.

Quote:

new Orion capsule for dep space exploration,

Yes, in 6 years when NASA starts redoing Apollo 8 every year or so, I am sure it will be very exciting...

We don't even know what the Orbiter community will be like in 5-6 years. 6 years ago, Orbiter 2006 hadn't even been released yet.

N_Molson · 11-28-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

I agree with your overall point but not all of us have the skills, time or know-how to produce add-ons

No, no no.

This is where a lot of people are wrong. Everything can be learnt, it's a matter of time, dedication of patience. This is one of the main characteristics of Homo Sapiens : it has very few innate behaviors and has to learn almost everything. This applies to making add-ons too. You aren't gifted or not gifted about this.

Now of course, if you are following computer science or 3D modelling applications studies, it helps a lot. But it is a "plus", not a requirement. It think that at some point it is a matter of self-confidence. Don't be afraid to throw yourself in.

Quote:

when NASA starts redoing Apollo 8 every year or so, I am sure it will be very exciting...

Well, it will be for me. If it happens.

Also, about the graphics client, Jarmonik's one is almost as stable as the original on its last releases.

Codz · 11-28-2011, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.Neo

Yes, in 6 years when NASA starts redoing Apollo 8 every year or so, I am sure it will be very exciting...

Well that would excite me and many others on O-F.

11-28-2011, 11:52 AM	#18
Moach Crazy dude with a rocket	i often think Orbiter has the potential to become a largely accepted general flight simulation tool, if a few items could be produced (all part of my list of addons-to-do): - a CFG-based way to create more involved DVC's, even for already existing ships (the universal dynamic virtual cockpit project) - a proper ingame universal stack configuration tool, to allow users to try their own combinations of launch vehicles and cargo (the starport project) - a decent realtime photoreal scenery streaming device, that downloads images from geographic imagery servers and composes ground tiles from those - and possibly srtm elevation data (the geo-gen project) - a volumetric clouds and weather rendering module - to turn that thin cloud layer into something that you can fly through (this could include moving waves on water) ....that last one would require some DX11 graphics client support, particularly for addon shaders access and stuff hint :wink: this weekend, i was even thinking of how one would code an FSX addon compatibility module, to load FlightSim aircraft and stuff right into Orbiter... and i find that this is actually doable so yeah, if i had enough able time to have my way with it - i'd code Orbiter into a full-featured alternative for FSX... but well, i find myself stripped of that most basic requirement much more often than i'd like.... (could anyone spare me a million dollars, please?) so have patience Orbiter has always been a "slowly-but-surely" type deal.... every now and then, it gets a kick of enthusiasm and a lot of new coll things appear (strangely related to Martins work cycle, for some unclear reason), but it's normally slow like this.... it's not dieing, really... it's just in "chill time" mode... and it's been slower than this some time before, it happens things will pick up - surely enough Last edited by Moach; 11-28-2011 at 11:57 AM.

11-28-2011, 01:21 PM	#27
Urwumpe Donator	Quote: Originally Posted by Yoda Leave it up to Urwumpe to turn a general question into a personal attack........ Read it as a personal criticism. It was at least not meant to be a direct attack against your person, since your user name is pretty replaceable in the past years of such posts appearing. It could have been somebody else and it had been other people already in the past. Die größten Kritiker der Elche waren früher selber welche. PS: Skills can be acquired. 99% of what I can do in Orbiter are not a gift of my parents, but what I had to do because it had to be done one day... I was simply forced to learn. Last edited by Urwumpe; 11-28-2011 at 01:24 PM.

11-28-2011, 01:32 PM	#29
N_Molson Addon Developer	Quote: I agree with your overall point but not all of us have the skills, time or know-how to produce add-ons No, no no. This is where a lot of people are wrong. Everything can be learnt, it's a matter of time, dedication of patience. This is one of the main characteristics of Homo Sapiens : it has very few innate behaviors and has to learn almost everything. This applies to making add-ons too. You aren't gifted or not gifted about this. Now of course, if you are following computer science or 3D modelling applications studies, it helps a lot. But it is a "plus", not a requirement. It think that at some point it is a matter of self-confidence. Don't be afraid to throw yourself in. Quote: when NASA starts redoing Apollo 8 every year or so, I am sure it will be very exciting... Well, it will be for me. If it happens. Also, about the graphics client, Jarmonik's one is almost as stable as the original on its last releases. Last edited by N_Molson; 11-28-2011 at 01:35 PM.

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11-28-2011, 11:13 AM	#16
fausto FOI SuperMod	I can tell you what i think according to my Forum Orbiter Italia experience: I think that development is not seen by a "team" point of view.. i mean that most of new addons are made by one person, and we know how complex an avanced development could be.. great add-ons are always created by the experience and passion of more people, like AMSO. I think that the fact to be in a team gives developers the will to work at the best... I don't think Orbiter is dying.. with new private space access like Dragon and SpaceShip Two and new Orion capsule for dep space exploration, i'm sure the interest for Orbiter will rise up again!!

11-28-2011, 11:51 AM	#17
Codz Orion/SLS supporter.	I don't see why you'd say US spaceflight is over. You've got SpaceX, Orion/SLS, and the Boeing CST. For unmanned missions you've got MSL, Juno, and GRAIL. That doesn't seem very over to me.

11-28-2011, 11:58 AM	#19
Screamer7 Orbinaut	I wanted to put up the same thread some weeks ago, but did not do that. I visit the Orbiter Hanger website almost everyday. There is an endless stream of XR2 and XR5 skins. Once in a while there is an exiting add on. But the add ons had really dried up in some ways. It looks like the add on developers are loosing interest in Orbiter. I remember how exited I was when David anounced that the autofcs for his newest Shuttle fleet is in the pipeline. But nothing really happened. I remember that when NASA or other space agency plans to launch a program, an add on was released before the mission even started.

11-28-2011, 12:00 PM	#20
Urwumpe Donator	Yes, Orbiter is dead - at least for Yoda, who can complain about other people not producing enough add-ons per month, regardless that his own output is pretty marginal. Really, I really lack the proper words here to describe what I am thinking. I don't want to say that all should be making add-ons. I know that this will only end in much more repaints of the XR2. But I think that the Orbiter community lives and dies by the actions of the people inside it. And this involves you (the person on the other side of the screen). If you want high quality add-ons, you either have to wait patiently for them to come around, or make them yourself. The first step is always the hardest.

11-28-2011, 12:14 PM	#21
orb O-F Administrator	Orbiter isn't dying. There are new public betas released (last was at the beginning of November), DirectX 9.0 and DirectX 11/10 graphics clients are being developed. I can't see how Orbiter is dying, at all.

11-28-2011, 12:16 PM	#22
Moach Crazy dude with a rocket	wanna hear a story? back in '03, i was desperately searching for a proper 737 addon for FS2004... there wasn't any... (there was PMDG, but it had quite a brutal price tag) so i waited.... me and my brother HarvesteR, we waited.... then patience ran out.... we fired up gMax (3dsMax's little brother) and started modelling - with very little clue of what we were doing, really - to such an extent that things i model today in 10 minutes required several days of work to achieve... about a year later - the "737 experience" was out... and at the time - it was heralded as a formidable addon, to which countless repaints were made (i tried to collect them all, but things got way outta hand eventually) i didn't know what i was doing - not even how on earth i'd tackle the next big thing that had to be done.... but one hurdle at a time, it got done - even if sometimes i'm amazed that it did, looking back at it and then guess what - me and HarvesteR discovered a talent for making things for games... when we found out that there was a university where we could major in game design - it was a no-brainer! - two weeks after, we were enrolled! and today - we made our carreers out of it - right now i'm at work programming games (well, i'm actually writing this, but i'll get back to coding shortly), and HarvesteR is out in Mexico making KSP - which was half my own idea (tho i'm still trying to squeeze him for a proper acknoledgement) so if you ever find yourself thinking "ah, this whatever could be better if someone made whatever addon" or anything of that sort -- just remember that someone might as well be YOU and you may end up enjoying it quite a lot

11-28-2011, 12:54 PM	#23
Notebook Orbinaut	Must say, I don't any impression of Orbiter dying, just the converse. Its the only thing that motivates me to attempt any kind of programming, graphics, physics, maths. One program can bring all those together, how can you get bored with it? I'll admit all my add-ons are for personal interest, but if not for Orbiter, I'd just be reading books about the early UK space program, not trying to simulate it. N.

11-28-2011, 01:03 PM	#24
agentgonzo Grounded since '09	Quote: Originally Posted by Codz I don't see why you'd say US spaceflight is over. Unfortunately, for most people US Spaceflight ≡ Space Shuttle. Whilst this is a terrible understanding of the situation, the ending of the STS program has resulted in a lack of excitement among many (including me) with space exploration. Nasa has a much better publicity machine for the English speaking world than Roscomos, JAXA, China (I don't know what their space agency is called) and spaceflight will always be more exciting for humans than sending probes/automated vehicles into space because you know there are people on board which you can imagine are like you and this is more engaging than a bunch of wires and metal. Nasa launches are easier to watch via NasaTV and the various web channels devoted to it than Roscomos launches and make more camera angles etc available for launches making it more exciting to watch. With the end of the space shuttle programme, all this will be drastically reduced for the next n years, which means people's lack of excitement. Also, the shuttle is more exciting to watch because you can see it fly like an aeroplane and glide to landing, rather than a capsule which just kind of falls. Bottom line, the space shuttle was the most exciting thing to watch launch/fly barring probably Apollo and without it spaceflight just isn't as exciting for the general public. This translates to less excitement in orbiter. And people want (in part) to play orbiter to fly the shuttle as flying a capsule isn't as exciting and not something the general populous can appreciate (as the see shuttle as aeroplane in space and can relate to aeroplanes). In short, spaceflight will get more exciting again in future, but there is no way that it's as exciting right now as it was 6 months ago when the shuttle was still flying.

11-28-2011, 01:05 PM	#25
Urwumpe Donator	Quote: Originally Posted by agentgonzo In short, spaceflight will get more exciting again in future, but there is no way that it's as exciting right now as it was 6 months ago when the shuttle was still flying. We'll talk about that in the future.

11-28-2011, 01:15 PM	#26
Yoda Donator	Quote: Originally Posted by Urwumpe Yes, Orbiter is dead - at least for Yoda, who can complain about other people not producing enough add-ons per month, regardless that his own output is pretty marginal. Really, I really lack the proper words here to describe what I am thinking. I don't want to say that all should be making add-ons. I know that this will only end in much more repaints of the XR2. But I think that the Orbiter community lives and dies by the actions of the people inside it. And this involves you (the person on the other side of the screen). If you want high quality add-ons, you either have to wait patiently for them to come around, or make them yourself. The first step is always the hardest. Leave it up to Urwumpe to turn a general question into a personal attack........ I agree with your overall point but not all of us have the skills, time or know-how to produce add-ons ( or post negative responses to every thread on Orbiter Forum)....... Many of us are dependend on the great skills that some of us posses and are truly thankfull for the work they produce !

11-28-2011, 01:30 PM	#28
T.Neo SA 2010 Soccermaniac	If Orbiter is supposedly dying: 1. Where are the statistics that show the "population" of Orbinauts is declining? 2. Where are the statistics that show that activity on the forums and such is declining? 3. Where are the statistics that show that less effort and time are being put into addon creation? 4. Where are the statistics that show that the popularity of Orbiter is declining? 5. What indicates that the devleopment of Orbiter is lagging or has ceased? Sorry, but without these, I don't know how you can say "Orbiter is dying a slow death". Apart from the yearly cycle of changing inactivity (motivated primarily because of the fact that most orbinauts hail from countries in the northern hemisphere) and the fact that not much is happening in the spaceflight arena leading to perhaps a decrease in enthusiasm, there is nothing to suggest that interest in or effort towards Orbiter is waning. Quote: new Orion capsule for dep space exploration, Yes, in 6 years when NASA starts redoing Apollo 8 every year or so, I am sure it will be very exciting... We don't even know what the Orbiter community will be like in 5-6 years. 6 years ago, Orbiter 2006 hadn't even been released yet.

11-28-2011, 01:53 PM	#30
Codz Orion/SLS supporter.	Quote: Originally Posted by T.Neo Yes, in 6 years when NASA starts redoing Apollo 8 every year or so, I am sure it will be very exciting... Well that would excite me and many others on O-F.