Comments

Cobalt · #1

Based on discussion in this thread, I've decided to try to make this as my first project.

Keep in mind that this will probably evolve a lot over time.

A few factors I'm concerned with:

Size: A lot to put in a very small space. Maybe increase size while keeping a one-seat configuration.
Docking: Currently, no true docking port. If the size increases, maybe this could change.
Parachutes: Location is an issue, depending on a docking port existing or not.

All said, I think this can be done. I would absolutely love input, advice, assistance (especially regarding textures) from anyone interested.

Suggestions for a name are welcome, too.

I've started the rough modeling, and once I feel like something's worth showing, I'll post shots.

penlu · 08-10-2008, 10:13 PM

Specify the problems with size? Not enough experiments, or not enough life support, or...

Eagle · 08-10-2008, 10:29 PM

For the docking port/parachute problem I can think of a few solutions. Assuming a capsule-like design.

1. Do a gemini style docking. You don't have a man-passable docking port, just grabbers, electrical and other cables and such. An EVA is required to enter the station.

2. Put the docking port on the side of the capsule (watch for aerodynamic problems). Keep the chute on top of the capsule.

3. Full Docking port on top. Store the chute somewhere else, but allow it to sling to the 'right place' when it deploys.

EDIT: I wouldn't really worry about the interior size. Mercury herself and even Gemini are much smaller than one would expect. Especially compared to Apollo. The only issue is the pilot may not be able to exit the craft without assistance.

Zatnikitelman · 08-10-2008, 11:06 PM

You could have the 'chute deploy from a side panel. The craft would come in at an odd angle depending on where the chute was, but instead of smacking the water with its flat-round heatshield, it could more easily slip into the water by presenting a more pointed profile.

Andy44 · 08-11-2008, 02:34 AM

Gemini uses a chute that opens from above the cockpit, such that the crew sits upright during splashdown. There were plans for a version of Gemini that would use a parafol and wheels to make a runway landing, but it got shelved.

**eveningsky339** · 08-11-2008, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy44

Gemini uses a chute that opens from above the cockpit, such that the crew sits upright during splashdown. There were plans for a version of Gemini that would use a parafol and wheels to make a runway landing, but it got shelved.

I've always wanted someone to simulate that...

Andy44 · 08-11-2008, 02:59 AM

I've got a photo of it around here somewhere that I took at the Udvar-Hazy museum, they've got the test article there, very cool.

penlu · 08-11-2008, 04:26 AM

Putting the parachute in the side IS NOT AN OPTION. The pilot already takes up too much space! A Gemini-style dock is also not an option, because the nose would have to either suddenly widen or we would have to move the docking port downwards to make it wider; it is JUST TOO NARROW. Remember that the top of the ship, when it starts rounding out, is a little less than half the ISS's docking port width. That is why my design calls for unfolding spars. The other options are a side dock (!?) or a parachute in the heat shield. Or just keep the chute in the nose.

EDIT: Space for the pilot really IS a problem. The pilot can barely get in and out, and is curled up into a ball while he's inside. An entire half of the spacecraft opens up to let him squeeze in.

Cobalt · 08-11-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penlu

Specify the problems with size? Not enough experiments, or not enough life support, or...

Well, for the most part, interior systems are probably going to have to be up to imagination. But now that you say that, I've got no clue where you'd place that. I need a sense of size, so let me re-study the drawings you did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle

For the docking port/parachute problem I can think of a few solutions. Assuming a capsule-like design.
1. Do a gemini style docking. You don't have a man-passable docking port, just grabbers, electrical and other cables and such. An EVA is required to enter the station.
2. Put the docking port on the side of the capsule (watch for aerodynamic problems). Keep the chute on top of the capsule.

3. Full Docking port on top. Store the chute somewhere else, but allow it to sling to the 'right place' when it deploys.

EDIT: I wouldn't really worry about the interior size. Mercury herself and even Gemini are much smaller than one would expect. Especially compared to Apollo. The only issue is the pilot may not be able to exit the craft without assistance.

If we're assuming this is a modern craft, it might be arguable that there'd be a great deal more interior space than Gemini or Mercury, thanks to ever-shrinking computer systems. With a better electrical layout, perhaps a panel on a track of some sort could move to make room for a docking port. Maybe. Think something like sliding door with wiring done through what connects the panel to the track. The actual processors and what not wouldn't be in the moving panel, but inputs could. And they could cover another section of inputs. The panels would lock at each end of the track to keep them in place. If the whole thing is scaled up maybe two feet, and the shape changed just a touch, this could provide space for a full scale docking port. But then, the matter becomes how does the door open. I'd assume it'd have to be one like that found on the docking port of the XR5 addon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zatnikitelman

You could have the 'chute deploy from a side panel. The craft would come in at an odd angle depending on where the chute was, but instead of smacking the water with its flat-round heatshield, it could more easily slip into the water by presenting a more pointed profile.

If the heat shield is providing some lift and it levels off a bit (if I'm blisteringly wrong about how this works feel free to correct me) the side 'chute would be a mighty jarring event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by penlu

Putting the parachute in the side IS NOT AN OPTION. The pilot already takes up too much space! A Gemini-style dock is also not an option, because the nose would have to either suddenly widen or we would have to move the docking port downwards to make it wider; it is JUST TOO NARROW. Remember that the top of the ship, when it starts rounding out, is a little less than half the ISS's docking port width. That is why my design calls for unfolding spars. The other options are a side dock (!?) or a parachute in the heat shield. Or just keep the chute in the nose.

EDIT: Space for the pilot really IS a problem. The pilot can barely get in and out, and is curled up into a ball while he's inside. An entire half of the spacecraft opens up to let him squeeze in.

If it's so small inside, though, it would seem getting out of or back in would take tremendous effort.

Something else I thought of: If the SM is what fires for reentry, what will move it out of the way of the capsule proper? If this goes through using spacecraft3 (Which is most likely) would there be a way to program post-jettison sequences? (We can cross that when we come to it.)

I had other ideas but they provided more problems than they solved so they're scrapped.

In any case, I'm working on the first stage now. I can scale up or down as necessary based on what happens.

Dman1410 · 08-11-2008, 01:44 PM

Guys for the name of the ship i came up with these...

SparrowHawk
or
S.S SparrowHawk

i know there the same name but should there be a S.S before the name or should it just be called SparrowHawk?

Cobalt · 08-11-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dman1410

Guys for the name of the ship i came up with these...

SparrowHawk
or
S.S SparrowHawk

i know there the same name but should there be a S.S before the name or should it just be called SparrowHawk?

SS makes me think naval ship. We should get a list of names and have a poll on the favorites when it's close to release.

**astrosammy** · 08-11-2008, 01:51 PM

And S.S. makes me think HUGE ship.

Cobalt · 08-11-2008, 09:50 PM

I need more input on something:

For the first stage, one engine or four smaller ones?

**Urwumpe** · 08-11-2008, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I need more input on something:

For the first stage, one engine or four smaller ones?

How much thrust should the first stage have? If you know that, you can choose a fitting engine for the thrust range from the list on astronautix.com and use this as reference. I would calculate around 20% more thrust for selecting the engine as initially required - the capsule might grow quickly in mass.

penlu · 08-11-2008, 10:21 PM

I left out one important fact: the capsule is one meter tall. I made it the smallest that could possibly fit a pilot inside.

Getting in and out shouldn't be a problem though. An entire half of the ship opens up, as I said.

Ah yes. I hope I mentioned the rocket was solid-fueled.

-----Posted Added-----

And why the Sparrowhawk? Sparrows are small, but hawks are big. I just prefer small orbital craft. My first drawing called it an "orbital thingy." Lol.

-----Posted Added-----

Triple post:

If I only had a scanner around, I could show you my pencil drawings. I always found using the Paint program hard.

-----Posted Added-----

zomg quadruple post I keep leaving things out:

seriously Sparrowhawk is a bit much for such a small thing.

08-11-2008, 04:26 AM	#8
penlu Orbinaut	Putting the parachute in the side IS NOT AN OPTION. The pilot already takes up too much space! A Gemini-style dock is also not an option, because the nose would have to either suddenly widen or we would have to move the docking port downwards to make it wider; it is JUST TOO NARROW. Remember that the top of the ship, when it starts rounding out, is a little less than half the ISS's docking port width. That is why my design calls for unfolding spars. The other options are a side dock (!?) or a parachute in the heat shield. Or just keep the chute in the nose. EDIT: Space for the pilot really IS a problem. The pilot can barely get in and out, and is curled up into a ball while he's inside. An entire half of the spacecraft opens up to let him squeeze in. Last edited by penlu; 08-11-2008 at 04:29 AM. Reason: Forgot a bit

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08-10-2008, 10:13 PM	#2
penlu Orbinaut	Specify the problems with size? Not enough experiments, or not enough life support, or...

08-10-2008, 10:29 PM	#3
Eagle The Amazing Flying Tuna Can	For the docking port/parachute problem I can think of a few solutions. Assuming a capsule-like design. 1. Do a gemini style docking. You don't have a man-passable docking port, just grabbers, electrical and other cables and such. An EVA is required to enter the station. 2. Put the docking port on the side of the capsule (watch for aerodynamic problems). Keep the chute on top of the capsule. 3. Full Docking port on top. Store the chute somewhere else, but allow it to sling to the 'right place' when it deploys. EDIT: I wouldn't really worry about the interior size. Mercury herself and even Gemini are much smaller than one would expect. Especially compared to Apollo. The only issue is the pilot may not be able to exit the craft without assistance.

08-10-2008, 11:06 PM	#4
Zatnikitelman Wandering lonely as a cloud	You could have the 'chute deploy from a side panel. The craft would come in at an odd angle depending on where the chute was, but instead of smacking the water with its flat-round heatshield, it could more easily slip into the water by presenting a more pointed profile.

08-11-2008, 02:34 AM	#5
Andy44 owner: Oil Creek Astronautix	Gemini uses a chute that opens from above the cockpit, such that the crew sits upright during splashdown. There were plans for a version of Gemini that would use a parafol and wheels to make a runway landing, but it got shelved.

08-11-2008, 02:53 AM	#6
eveningsky339 Resident Orbiter Slave	Quote: Originally Posted by Andy44 Gemini uses a chute that opens from above the cockpit, such that the crew sits upright during splashdown. There were plans for a version of Gemini that would use a parafol and wheels to make a runway landing, but it got shelved. I've always wanted someone to simulate that...

08-11-2008, 02:59 AM	#7
Andy44 owner: Oil Creek Astronautix	I've got a photo of it around here somewhere that I took at the Udvar-Hazy museum, they've got the test article there, very cool.

08-11-2008, 01:39 PM	#9
Cobalt Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by penlu Specify the problems with size? Not enough experiments, or not enough life support, or... Well, for the most part, interior systems are probably going to have to be up to imagination. But now that you say that, I've got no clue where you'd place that. I need a sense of size, so let me re-study the drawings you did. Quote: Originally Posted by Eagle For the docking port/parachute problem I can think of a few solutions. Assuming a capsule-like design. 1. Do a gemini style docking. You don't have a man-passable docking port, just grabbers, electrical and other cables and such. An EVA is required to enter the station. 2. Put the docking port on the side of the capsule (watch for aerodynamic problems). Keep the chute on top of the capsule. 3. Full Docking port on top. Store the chute somewhere else, but allow it to sling to the 'right place' when it deploys. EDIT: I wouldn't really worry about the interior size. Mercury herself and even Gemini are much smaller than one would expect. Especially compared to Apollo. The only issue is the pilot may not be able to exit the craft without assistance. If we're assuming this is a modern craft, it might be arguable that there'd be a great deal more interior space than Gemini or Mercury, thanks to ever-shrinking computer systems. With a better electrical layout, perhaps a panel on a track of some sort could move to make room for a docking port. Maybe. Think something like sliding door with wiring done through what connects the panel to the track. The actual processors and what not wouldn't be in the moving panel, but inputs could. And they could cover another section of inputs. The panels would lock at each end of the track to keep them in place. If the whole thing is scaled up maybe two feet, and the shape changed just a touch, this could provide space for a full scale docking port. But then, the matter becomes how does the door open. I'd assume it'd have to be one like that found on the docking port of the XR5 addon. Quote: Originally Posted by Zatnikitelman You could have the 'chute deploy from a side panel. The craft would come in at an odd angle depending on where the chute was, but instead of smacking the water with its flat-round heatshield, it could more easily slip into the water by presenting a more pointed profile. If the heat shield is providing some lift and it levels off a bit (if I'm blisteringly wrong about how this works feel free to correct me) the side 'chute would be a mighty jarring event. Quote: Originally Posted by penlu Putting the parachute in the side IS NOT AN OPTION. The pilot already takes up too much space! A Gemini-style dock is also not an option, because the nose would have to either suddenly widen or we would have to move the docking port downwards to make it wider; it is JUST TOO NARROW. Remember that the top of the ship, when it starts rounding out, is a little less than half the ISS's docking port width. That is why my design calls for unfolding spars. The other options are a side dock (!?) or a parachute in the heat shield. Or just keep the chute in the nose. EDIT: Space for the pilot really IS a problem. The pilot can barely get in and out, and is curled up into a ball while he's inside. An entire half of the spacecraft opens up to let him squeeze in. If it's so small inside, though, it would seem getting out of or back in would take tremendous effort. Something else I thought of: If the SM is what fires for reentry, what will move it out of the way of the capsule proper? If this goes through using spacecraft3 (Which is most likely) would there be a way to program post-jettison sequences? (We can cross that when we come to it.) I had other ideas but they provided more problems than they solved so they're scrapped. In any case, I'm working on the first stage now. I can scale up or down as necessary based on what happens.

08-11-2008, 01:44 PM	#10
Dman1410 Orbinaut	Guys for the name of the ship i came up with these... SparrowHawk or S.S SparrowHawk i know there the same name but should there be a S.S before the name or should it just be called SparrowHawk?

08-11-2008, 01:49 PM	#11
Cobalt Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Dman1410 Guys for the name of the ship i came up with these... SparrowHawk or S.S SparrowHawk i know there the same name but should there be a S.S before the name or should it just be called SparrowHawk? SS makes me think naval ship. We should get a list of names and have a poll on the favorites when it's close to release.

08-11-2008, 01:51 PM	#12
astrosammy Dash!	And S.S. makes me think HUGE ship.

08-11-2008, 09:50 PM	#13
Cobalt Orbinaut	I need more input on something: For the first stage, one engine or four smaller ones?

08-11-2008, 09:54 PM	#14
Urwumpe Donator	Quote: Originally Posted by Cobalt I need more input on something: For the first stage, one engine or four smaller ones? How much thrust should the first stage have? If you know that, you can choose a fitting engine for the thrust range from the list on astronautix.com and use this as reference. I would calculate around 20% more thrust for selecting the engine as initially required - the capsule might grow quickly in mass.

08-11-2008, 10:21 PM	#15
penlu Orbinaut	I left out one important fact: the capsule is one meter tall. I made it the smallest that could possibly fit a pilot inside. Getting in and out shouldn't be a problem though. An entire half of the ship opens up, as I said. Ah yes. I hope I mentioned the rocket was solid-fueled. -----Posted Added----- And why the Sparrowhawk? Sparrows are small, but hawks are big. I just prefer small orbital craft. My first drawing called it an "orbital thingy." Lol. -----Posted Added----- Triple post: If I only had a scanner around, I could show you my pencil drawings. I always found using the Paint program hard. -----Posted Added----- zomg quadruple post I keep leaving things out: seriously Sparrowhawk is a bit much for such a small thing.