Backyard to orbit: consequences? - Page 3 - Orbiter-Forum

jedidia · 03-12-2010, 09:42 AM

Quote:

I was thinking it as a reaction drive with independent thrust and ISP throttling - it goes low-isp, consuming about 60% of fuel for the first and last 10 Km's to minimize the damage, and blasting on full power once up safe.

Hmmm... this might actually work out for the ground.

As for the whole implications, i'd suggest that you make your genius member of a third or at best second world country. Someone from the african continent, maybe, or from an undeveloped asian nation, or somewhere in south america. They have lots of empty plains where he could build the thing unnoticed and where noone would get disturbed too much at launch. Legal procedures aren't that tough either.

If he is American, stuff gets way too complicated. Of course you'd have to make sure that he can somehow get his hands on the needed parts in an underdeveloped nation, but it might actually be easier than in a first world nation, where gouvernement will immediately notice and get veeery suspicious when someone buys large amounts of alloys, electronics and chemicals to build a spaceship.

As for how the whole story would play, I think a lot of attention has to be given to radar officers. First confusion, then alarm, since the rocket is launched with rather "normal" energy output it might get mistaken for an ICBM. Gouvernemant panic, defcon X, wild accusing and arguing on international lines, then suddenly the call "the thing is accelerating at impossible rates!" everyone halts, wild speculation, general confusion in politics as well as the public (when the ship lights up its engines at full power, most people living on the hemisphere should be able to see it, if it's dark even exceptionally well). Talk about extraterrestrials having infiltrated the earth and now making off with their data, E.T. going home, etc.
Now would be a good time for people to start radioing. I'd guess the first one to make contact in such a case would be amateurs, bacause they'll probably have gotten on their radios first second they heard about something unidentified launching.

Then comes the excited "the object has reached orbital velocity and stopped accelerating. I repeat, object has entered stable orbit!"

Some sort of radio contact will now certainly be established, the nature of the object is clear, and most Gov-leaders from around the world will want to talk to the pilot. That's when the whole negotiating would start on where the thing is going to land. Gouvernements will outdo themselfes with offers for the technology, some might even threaten to shoot it down if it doesn't land in their country, or if it lands in a country they consider specifically hostile (imagine for example the U.S. if the guy says he's going to land in Iran...).

From there on, I guess it would get more and more complex. Depending on the character of your genious, he might decide to land in a neutral nation which he believes would make the technology public, or he might land in the country of the highest bidder, or he might land somewhere where he deemes his chance of not getting locked away for live as a "valuable asset" highest.

Or, he pulls it Perry Rhodan style lands somewhere in the desert, errects his Deflector SHield which he also happened to construct to keep the artileries of the nations at bay, found a new nation and start his quest for unification of the earth...

Linguofreak · 03-12-2010, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedidia

As for how the whole story would play, I think a lot of attention has to be given to radar officers. First confusion, then alarm, since the rocket is launched with rather "normal" energy output it might get mistaken for an ICBM. Gouvernemant panic, defcon X, wild accusing and arguing on international lines, then suddenly the call "the thing is accelerating at impossible rates!"

Except that, being a manned craft, it would have to be following a human-friendly acceleration profile. ICBM's typically accelerate much faster than a manned craft would, since they have no crew. So if anything gave it away, it would be a lazy, rather than aggressive acceleration profile.

jedidia · 03-12-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Except that, being a manned craft, it would have to be following a human-friendly acceleration profile. ICBM's typically accelerate much faster than a manned craft would, since they have no crew. So if anything gave it away, it would be a lazy, rather than aggressive acceleration profile.

oh, right... completely forgott about that.

earthorbit · 03-12-2010, 01:42 PM

I think at End of the Reentry Sequence he'll see some ABMs...

ikrase · 03-12-2010, 11:31 PM

I thought ABMs attacked when in space.

Here's another possiblity. I imagine this as someone who accidentally discovered how to ignite hydrogen when experimenting with fusors and micro-stellarators. He discovered it with minor radiation sickness, and was able to make it safe, and into a rocket.

Suppose it's a lifting body, but lifts straight up. (to allow VTOL and multiple planet landing). Therefore it might look like a ballistic missile (He might get a permit to launch something much less impressive but with that looks like the rocket in low ISP mode.) for the first seconds. It then transitions to horizontal flight, increases ISP (might not even have greater than 1 T/W in high ISP mode) and possibly engages scramjets if it has them. This is the "HOLY **** it's way to bright, and going horizontally" stage. Infrared will see it, not radar. Might be dissmissed as fluke until he gets into orbit. OTOH a ballistic missile is a less "hot" IR signature and is, well, ballistic. He should then boost to a high orbit and start spamming, "Hi. I built a rocket!"

It might be a good idea to show that he is human. This could be done by saying hi to those poor chemical-fuel-using folks at the ISS.

A good bargaining chip would be that he has both a rocket and a weapon. He could deter anyone from trying to capture him.

I would highly suggest trying to land incognito and build a space station before announcing oneself. If they tried to take over when he lands, he could just hover for a second.

Sky Captain · 03-13-2010, 09:51 AM

I don`t think damage on ground will be that big problem. Just find a site accessible with heavy truck where there is nothing valuable in ~1 km radius and you should be good to go. I can think of at least several suitable sites wthin 10 - 20 km from my town.

For example if your craft with full tanks weighs 25 tons you need ~350 kN of thrust to quickly get off the ground and gain speed. If exhaust velocity is 25 km/s total jet power is ~4,5 GW. That`s approximately power output of a single SSME. Space shuttle stack when lifting off puts out ~order of magnitude more power than your backyard rocket would.

Such launch obviously would make lot`s of noise and scare unsuspecting people but at least they all should come out allive and without major property damage maybe some cracked windows but that`s minor problem. Eye damage to people looking directly into exhaust plume might be a concern because plume will be so hot it will radiate UV, but that can be solved by launching when there is low overcast so the rocket quickly goes out of sight.

**Xyon** · 03-13-2010, 10:00 AM

Making sure you don't land on anything else is critical. You'd be unlucky to hit anything on the way up, but it'd be bad for all concerned if you did.

Ghostrider · 03-13-2010, 12:06 PM

I think that's a classic Charlie Brown situation. If you could actually make a rocket in your backward able to carry a manned vehicle into LEO, what would happen afterwards would depend on the results.

If you make it, you'll have demonstrated the feasibility of low-cost manned spaceflight and many, many people will be queueing at your door to have you working with them. You will be a hero.

If you don't make it, you will be decried for risking life and limb (yes, our society seem not to take it kindly when you even endanger only your own life) and endangering others.
You will be a creep.

So, hero or creep, it only depends on the outcome. Like Charlie Brown as a receiver.

Sky Captain · 03-13-2010, 01:43 PM

Since any serious accident is likely to be fatal you will either make it to orbit and be a hero or be dead so you don`t have to worry what happens if your spacecraft explodes/crashes/fails to reach stable orbit and burns up on reentry/suddenly depressurizes.

Even if you crash and die, but your spacecraft demonstrates some radical new concept that can drastically cut launch price you might still be later remembered as a hero who made cheap large scale space access a reality.

Ghostrider · 03-13-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Even if you crash and die, but your spacecraft demonstrates some radical new concept that can drastically cut launch price you might still be later remembered as a hero who made cheap large scale space access a reality.

No, no, if you kill yourself stupidly you become An Hero(TM).

ikrase · 03-14-2010, 01:33 AM

Probably good idea to build a second engine and entrust it to someone...

03-12-2010, 09:42 AM	#31
jedidia shoemaker without legs	Quote: I was thinking it as a reaction drive with independent thrust and ISP throttling - it goes low-isp, consuming about 60% of fuel for the first and last 10 Km's to minimize the damage, and blasting on full power once up safe. Hmmm... this might actually work out for the ground. As for the whole implications, i'd suggest that you make your genius member of a third or at best second world country. Someone from the african continent, maybe, or from an undeveloped asian nation, or somewhere in south america. They have lots of empty plains where he could build the thing unnoticed and where noone would get disturbed too much at launch. Legal procedures aren't that tough either. If he is American, stuff gets way too complicated. Of course you'd have to make sure that he can somehow get his hands on the needed parts in an underdeveloped nation, but it might actually be easier than in a first world nation, where gouvernement will immediately notice and get veeery suspicious when someone buys large amounts of alloys, electronics and chemicals to build a spaceship. As for how the whole story would play, I think a lot of attention has to be given to radar officers. First confusion, then alarm, since the rocket is launched with rather "normal" energy output it might get mistaken for an ICBM. Gouvernemant panic, defcon X, wild accusing and arguing on international lines, then suddenly the call "the thing is accelerating at impossible rates!" everyone halts, wild speculation, general confusion in politics as well as the public (when the ship lights up its engines at full power, most people living on the hemisphere should be able to see it, if it's dark even exceptionally well). Talk about extraterrestrials having infiltrated the earth and now making off with their data, E.T. going home, etc. Now would be a good time for people to start radioing. I'd guess the first one to make contact in such a case would be amateurs, bacause they'll probably have gotten on their radios first second they heard about something unidentified launching. Then comes the excited "the object has reached orbital velocity and stopped accelerating. I repeat, object has entered stable orbit!" Some sort of radio contact will now certainly be established, the nature of the object is clear, and most Gov-leaders from around the world will want to talk to the pilot. That's when the whole negotiating would start on where the thing is going to land. Gouvernements will outdo themselfes with offers for the technology, some might even threaten to shoot it down if it doesn't land in their country, or if it lands in a country they consider specifically hostile (imagine for example the U.S. if the guy says he's going to land in Iran...). From there on, I guess it would get more and more complex. Depending on the character of your genious, he might decide to land in a neutral nation which he believes would make the technology public, or he might land in the country of the highest bidder, or he might land somewhere where he deemes his chance of not getting locked away for live as a "valuable asset" highest. Or, he pulls it Perry Rhodan style lands somewhere in the desert, errects his Deflector SHield which he also happened to construct to keep the artileries of the nations at bay, found a new nation and start his quest for unification of the earth... Last edited by jedidia; 03-12-2010 at 09:49 AM.

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03-12-2010, 11:06 AM	#32
Linguofreak Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by jedidia As for how the whole story would play, I think a lot of attention has to be given to radar officers. First confusion, then alarm, since the rocket is launched with rather "normal" energy output it might get mistaken for an ICBM. Gouvernemant panic, defcon X, wild accusing and arguing on international lines, then suddenly the call "the thing is accelerating at impossible rates!" Except that, being a manned craft, it would have to be following a human-friendly acceleration profile. ICBM's typically accelerate much faster than a manned craft would, since they have no crew. So if anything gave it away, it would be a lazy, rather than aggressive acceleration profile.

03-12-2010, 01:30 PM	#33
jedidia shoemaker without legs	Quote: Except that, being a manned craft, it would have to be following a human-friendly acceleration profile. ICBM's typically accelerate much faster than a manned craft would, since they have no crew. So if anything gave it away, it would be a lazy, rather than aggressive acceleration profile. oh, right... completely forgott about that.

03-12-2010, 01:42 PM	#34
earthorbit Desktop Crasher	I think at End of the Reentry Sequence he'll see some ABMs...

03-12-2010, 11:31 PM	#35
ikrase Orbinaut	I thought ABMs attacked when in space. Here's another possiblity. I imagine this as someone who accidentally discovered how to ignite hydrogen when experimenting with fusors and micro-stellarators. He discovered it with minor radiation sickness, and was able to make it safe, and into a rocket. Suppose it's a lifting body, but lifts straight up. (to allow VTOL and multiple planet landing). Therefore it might look like a ballistic missile (He might get a permit to launch something much less impressive but with that looks like the rocket in low ISP mode.) for the first seconds. It then transitions to horizontal flight, increases ISP (might not even have greater than 1 T/W in high ISP mode) and possibly engages scramjets if it has them. This is the "HOLY **** it's way to bright, and going horizontally" stage. Infrared will see it, not radar. Might be dissmissed as fluke until he gets into orbit. OTOH a ballistic missile is a less "hot" IR signature and is, well, ballistic. He should then boost to a high orbit and start spamming, "Hi. I built a rocket!" It might be a good idea to show that he is human. This could be done by saying hi to those poor chemical-fuel-using folks at the ISS. A good bargaining chip would be that he has both a rocket and a weapon. He could deter anyone from trying to capture him. I would highly suggest trying to land incognito and build a space station before announcing oneself. If they tried to take over when he lands, he could just hover for a second.

03-13-2010, 09:51 AM	#36
Sky Captain Orbinaut	I don`t think damage on ground will be that big problem. Just find a site accessible with heavy truck where there is nothing valuable in ~1 km radius and you should be good to go. I can think of at least several suitable sites wthin 10 - 20 km from my town. For example if your craft with full tanks weighs 25 tons you need ~350 kN of thrust to quickly get off the ground and gain speed. If exhaust velocity is 25 km/s total jet power is ~4,5 GW. That`s approximately power output of a single SSME. Space shuttle stack when lifting off puts out ~order of magnitude more power than your backyard rocket would. Such launch obviously would make lot`s of noise and scare unsuspecting people but at least they all should come out allive and without major property damage maybe some cracked windows but that`s minor problem. Eye damage to people looking directly into exhaust plume might be a concern because plume will be so hot it will radiate UV, but that can be solved by launching when there is low overcast so the rocket quickly goes out of sight.

03-13-2010, 10:00 AM	#37
Xyon Error 418: I'm a teapot	Making sure you don't land on anything else is critical. You'd be unlucky to hit anything on the way up, but it'd be bad for all concerned if you did.

03-13-2010, 12:06 PM	#38
Ghostrider Orbinaut	I think that's a classic Charlie Brown situation. If you could actually make a rocket in your backward able to carry a manned vehicle into LEO, what would happen afterwards would depend on the results. If you make it, you'll have demonstrated the feasibility of low-cost manned spaceflight and many, many people will be queueing at your door to have you working with them. You will be a hero. If you don't make it, you will be decried for risking life and limb (yes, our society seem not to take it kindly when you even endanger only your own life) and endangering others. You will be a creep. So, hero or creep, it only depends on the outcome. Like Charlie Brown as a receiver.

03-13-2010, 01:43 PM	#39
Sky Captain Orbinaut	Since any serious accident is likely to be fatal you will either make it to orbit and be a hero or be dead so you don`t have to worry what happens if your spacecraft explodes/crashes/fails to reach stable orbit and burns up on reentry/suddenly depressurizes. Even if you crash and die, but your spacecraft demonstrates some radical new concept that can drastically cut launch price you might still be later remembered as a hero who made cheap large scale space access a reality.

03-13-2010, 05:23 PM	#40
Ghostrider Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Sky Captain Even if you crash and die, but your spacecraft demonstrates some radical new concept that can drastically cut launch price you might still be later remembered as a hero who made cheap large scale space access a reality. No, no, if you kill yourself stupidly you become An Hero(TM).

03-14-2010, 01:33 AM	#41
ikrase Orbinaut	Probably good idea to build a second engine and entrust it to someone...