General Question Mission Control Simulation

riocante

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We all like to fly our little probes around and there have been attempts at mission control software in the past but they all end up failing at one general point: Why look at it's data when you can be flying it.

I've come up with an idea and I'd like to run it by you guys that know the ins and outs of the SDK a little better to see if it's even possible.

How about running the orbiter in pure server mode, no graphics, real time. have an addon to allow vessel control via scripts, eg lua. and an interface that allows you to see the data. There will be NO direct control link between humans and the vessels. I'm thinking something like a web interface. You plan and script everything from launch to course corrections, even possibly reentry. Vessels like the XR series will require advanced autopilots, and actual rockets will be more of the primary launch vehicles.

I know there are a lot of questions still to be answered in implementation but I'm just wandering if running orbiter like this, just outputting raw data and causing timed burns would be possible. All this done by programming rather then direct intervention.
 

fred18

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We all like to fly our little probes around and there have been attempts at mission control software in the past but they all end up failing at one general point: Why look at it's data when you can be flying it.

I've come up with an idea and I'd like to run it by you guys that know the ins and outs of the SDK a little better to see if it's even possible.

How about running the orbiter in pure server mode, no graphics, real time. have an addon to allow vessel control via scripts, eg lua. and an interface that allows you to see the data. There will be NO direct control link between humans and the vessels. I'm thinking something like a web interface. You plan and script everything from launch to course corrections, even possibly reentry. Vessels like the XR series will require advanced autopilots, and actual rockets will be more of the primary launch vehicles.

I know there are a lot of questions still to be answered in implementation but I'm just wandering if running orbiter like this, just outputting raw data and causing timed burns would be possible. All this done by programming rather then direct intervention.

not only it is possible, it's something I've been working on for a while and that it's still there waiting for me to pick it up. I share your passion for a MCC kind of things, I also made a sort of it for the Space Network plugin which also works within the sim, have a look at this:
https://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?p=562217&postcount=95

and the one in the picture was just the beginning, the actual development stage has gone much further. I was able to launch a rocket and follow the whole ascent without even seeing it.

This is valuable only for the people that sees something special in it, for all the rest of the users it's pointless, so it's just a niche of us who like it. Not that there is anything good or bad, it's just tastes

Since I've worked also on an implementation for web developing (after I saw the amazing OrbConnect addon by kamaz) and I made it work, do you want to know what I really would love?

A computer running orbiter also with no graphics, broadcasting data on the web, and a series of guys like us, sitting at those simulated consoles with hearphones on, talking to each other through any audio web service like it was a real mission control.

That's the dream that I keep having and that's why in the end in the MS2015 module there is such an attention to the telemetry in the MFD, why I keep digging around ways of simulating damages and/or failures etc

Well I talked a bit too much, but I hope it was helpful :cheers:
 

martins

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This sounds like an excellent idea. One thing though: if you plan a mission to send a probe to some remote location, you'd at least want to get a few images sent back as a crowning reward (painfully slowly on a low-bandwidth downlink ;) ), rather than just the raw vessel telemetry data. I'm not sure how to accomplish this in pure "no-graphics" server mode, since the images are never formed then.
 

Urwumpe

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This sounds like an excellent idea. One thing though: if you plan a mission to send a probe to some remote location, you'd at least want to get a few images sent back as a crowning reward (painfully slowly on a low-bandwidth downlink ;) ), rather than just the raw vessel telemetry data. I'm not sure how to accomplish this in pure "no-graphics" server mode, since the images are never formed then.

What about using an altimeter or radar to measure the topography below and send home swaths of terrain data?
 

fred18

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This sounds like an excellent idea. One thing though: if you plan a mission to send a probe to some remote location, you'd at least want to get a few images sent back as a crowning reward (painfully slowly on a low-bandwidth downlink ;) ), rather than just the raw vessel telemetry data. I'm not sure how to accomplish this in pure "no-graphics" server mode, since the images are never formed then.

I don't know if you are referring to my post or to the first. If you're talking about my post I thought about it but I have no knowledge of graphic programming at all. That was my intention with the space network, which I in the end was able to accomplish only with a grounded vessel within the sim (opened with graphics) and with the focus switching rapidly to the probe, getting a screenshot and switching back to the MCC. it's not a very smooth process anyway, but it was the best I could achieve

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:11 ----------

What about using an altimeter or radar to measure the topography below and send home swaths of terrain data?

This is basically the whole concept of my space network plugin... if i find the time to finish it...
 

Abdullah Radwan

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I've tried to make a simple mission control. I've used [ame="https://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=6456"]SlaveMFD[/ame] (You'll need to compile it on Orbiter 2016 via provided source code) to set MFDs on the probe and go from any vessel in the ground, and [ame="https://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=7002"]AttitudeIndicatorMFD[/ame] to show the vessel orientation (I can't share the HUD), and remote control. I've tried to use [ame="https://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2645"]CameraMFD[/ame] but it doesn't work with D3D9 so it's useless.

Everything works very well except IMFD. When setting a burn, it doesn't show the burn vector page (just an empty black page). Also, it doesn't calculate the correct time and DV. Probably because it gets the data from the focus vessel even if it was opened in SlaveMFD. This canceled the idea for me because I had to switch to the probe everytime I want to burn.

Another problem also is the control. It's not so easy to control using remote control. I wish if I can use the joystick instead.

---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 AM ----------

This how it looks:

9UM3jBS.png
 

Abdullah Radwan

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So after a little bit of thinking and trying, I end up with a very good solution.
You'll set the focus to the vessel you want, then set the camera to a free ground camera by opening 'Camera' in the bar, then go to 'Ground' tab and uncheck 'Target lock'. Now you are in free camera mode.
Use the mouse scroll to adjust the height, arrows to adjust the rotation, Ctrl + arrows to adjust the location and Z, X to adjust the zoom. Then you can open external MFDs as much as you want.
This works very well and allows you to control using a joystick. Also, it works with IMFD without any problems. It just needs a camera MFD, hope someone will do it.

1LCgK90.png
 

fred18

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this is the beginning of the webpage connected to orbiter that I'm working on. The controls already works and I have set about 40 api controls already converted in http messages, so it's just a matter of assembling the page properly. As said the idea came from orbconnect but I did it on my own because I wanted a different set of features. I already tried to add live plots for trajectory and it works perfectly.

Orbiter%20webMCC.png


---------- Post added at 10:34 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------

Note: orbiter can be run with no graphics here, I tested it and it works without issue, you see everything you need, exactly as a you mentioned at the beginning.

In the meantime since you like this very much I decided to share this, it should work without spacenetwork without issues, it's my MCC, I really think you could like it a lot, here's the screenshot:

SN_MCC.png


You can select the target vessel of which you want to acquire data by pressing Ctrl+T and input the name of the vessel

Left big screen alitutde and velocity above and thrust and fuel below, center screen world map with all the vessels around it, right screen a lot of data.
below the two MFDs.

Just place the SNMCC somewhere in the world, and jump into its virtual cockpit (you can also move around the room with the virtual cockpit controls).

Just let me know if it works and if you like it SN_MCC
 

fred18

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Web interface is the way to go.

In theory you could leave Orbiter running on your home PC and control the mission using your mobile.

Yep, tested it exactly like that and it works
 

Urwumpe

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I want to go a mixed path in SSU eventually - right now, its about using such MCC/LCC vessels, since we are strictly single player. But eventually, it is planned to allow connecting to those control centers by a C# application, so somebody else can assist or access live telemetry (prototype already exists).

A web interface would be more interesting there, but require a lot more infrastructure to prevent issues.

Wouldn't it be simpler to have a MCC for a small unmanned mission?

Maybe it could be done as cargo modules for the Shuttle A:

  1. Launch probe in a cargo module for Shuttle A from lunar surface
  2. Escape gravity well of Earth with manned Shuttle A towards target
  3. Activate probe by a special remote control MFD.
  4. Release probe module
  5. Pass control to the MCC by MFD
  6. Abort escape trajectory with Shuttle A and return to the moon
  7. While cruising back, perform initial checkout of the probe with MCC
  8. Land on the moon with Shuttle A
  9. Control probe by MCC
  10. Perform science or what ever you simulate
 

Abdullah Radwan

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In the meantime since you like this very much I decided to share this, it should work without spacenetwork without issues, it's my MCC, I really think you could like it a lot, here's the screenshot:

SN_MCC.png


You can select the target vessel of which you want to acquire data by pressing Ctrl+T and input the name of the vessel

Left big screen alitutde and velocity above and thrust and fuel below, center screen world map with all the vessels around it, right screen a lot of data.
below the two MFDs.

Just place the SNMCC somewhere in the world, and jump into its virtual cockpit (you can also move around the room with the virtual cockpit controls).

Just let me know if it works and if you like it SN_MCC

Thanks for doing such a great center! It looks great. Here are some notices:

  • The temperate is wrong. My altitude was 200K and the temperate was over 600C!
  • 2 MFDs is too low for a mission control. I guess it's an Orbiter limit. If not, consider adding more MFDs into it.
  • The MFDs buttons are way confusing. Would be better if you sort it the normal way.
  • The most important thing: TransX and IMFD get the data only from the focus vessel so they doesn't work with SlaveMFD. That means I can't execute or plan a burn from the mission control. I must set the focus to the vessel to execute the burn.
  • It'll be great if you replace one of the big space shuttle photos with MS_CAMERA. That'll look super realistic.
A web interface will be a good alternative in case IMFD and TransX don't work, as the focus can be set to the payload.
 

fred18

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Wouldn't it be simpler to have a MCC for a small unmanned mission?

Maybe it could be done as cargo modules for the Shuttle A:

  1. Launch probe in a cargo module for Shuttle A from lunar surface
  2. Escape gravity well of Earth with manned Shuttle A towards target
  3. Activate probe by a special remote control MFD.
  4. Release probe module
  5. Pass control to the MCC by MFD
  6. Abort escape trajectory with Shuttle A and return to the moon
  7. While cruising back, perform initial checkout of the probe with MCC
  8. Land on the moon with Shuttle A
  9. Control probe by MCC
  10. Perform science or what ever you simulate

I kinda lost you for a second, then I think I understood. Yeah, it surely be easy, but I'd like to have a proper one, that's why I've been working for such long time on both Space Network and this. I can have also a backyard rocket which is simpler than a saturn V, but if i can choose I'd like to have a saturn V (even though firing it in the backyard could be quite an issue :lol:)

Thanks for doing such a great center! It looks great. Here are some notices:

  • The temperate is wrong. My altitude was 200K and the temperate was over 600C!
  • 2 MFDs is too low for a mission control. I guess it's an Orbiter limit. If not, consider adding more MFDs into it.
  • The MFDs buttons are way confusing. Would be better if you sort it the normal way.
  • The most important thing: TransX and IMFD get the data only from the focus vessel so they doesn't work with SlaveMFD. That means I can't execute or plan a burn from the mission control. I must set the focus to the vessel to execute the burn.
  • It'll be great if you replace one of the big space shuttle photos with MS_CAMERA. That'll look super realistic.
A web interface will be a good alternative in case IMFD and TransX don't work, as the focus can be set to the payload.

- The temperatures could be wrong but that's what's returned from Orbiter's API, if you get to fly higher or around the moon (so without atmosphere) they'll get down to -273.15, absolute zero.
- I know 2 are too low, I'll think about incrementing.
- I thought they were usable anyway, It's difficult to find a solution for this, I could anyway (together with the point above) make 4 MFDs (one for each screen) and then place the buttons around them.
- About transX and IMFD there's nothing I can do about that I can think of
- I just found out about the custom cameras of D3D9 thanks to your question in the other thread. I'll try to work with that (it will work only on D3D9 then of course).
 

Urwumpe

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I kinda lost you for a second, then I think I understood. Yeah, it surely be easy, but I'd like to have a proper one, that's why I've been working for such long time on both Space Network and this. I can have also a backyard rocket which is simpler than a saturn V, but if i can choose I'd like to have a saturn V (even though firing it in the backyard could be quite an issue :lol:)


Well, I mostly think about how to make more people try it, so there is faster feedback. And no, I don't need a backyard rocket. I have no backyard. No backyard, no rocket :lol:
 

martins

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My altitude was 200K and the temperate was over 600C!

That sounds about right. Note that above altitude 100km the atmospheric temperature approaches fairly quickly the exospheric temperature, which, depending on solar irradiation, tends to be somewhere between 900K and 1200K. See Doc\Technotes\earth_atm.pdf, Figure 2 for reference.

The temperatures could be wrong but that's what's returned from Orbiter's API, if you get to fly higher or around the moon (so without atmosphere) they'll get down to -273.15, absolute zero.
That's simply because below a certain density, it just doesn't make sense to define an atmospheric temperature any more. If the density is so low that a single gas molecule hits your sensor every couple of minutes or so, is it really useful to derive a temperature from its velocity? So for -273.15, simply read "N/A".
 

fred18

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That's simply because below a certain density, it just doesn't make sense to define an atmospheric temperature any more. If the density is so low that a single gas molecule hits your sensor every couple of minutes or so, is it really useful to derive a temperature from its velocity? So for -273.15, simply read "N/A".

Sure, that's perfectly right
 
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