News Contact lost with 777-200ER of Malaysia Airlines

Urwumpe

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There was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash

No radio calls.

Although who knows. At this point nobody really knows unless they find the wreck (or the flying saucer whose hangar bay the jet is parked in).

But also some many differences. The MH370 did some radical course changes while it was tracked by radar, something that suggests that the plane was still controlled. Its possible that the planes autopilot was following a different flight plan by then, but that's not making it an accident.
 

garyw

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The only explanation that seems to explain everything is a crazed murder/suicide pact by the crew, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of them having a reason to do it.

Well, there are many others but if the Captain sent the first officer into the cabin and then changed the door codes he'd be the only person on the flight deck and could do what he wants, including de-pressurizing the plane whilst being on oxygen and changing course.

This explains the course changes, the shutdown of the communications system, why the co-pilots mobile connected to a cell tower and why no wreckage was found along or near the planes flight path.

It's a great theory, everything fits but for a few snags:

1. We still have no idea where the plane is.
2. No debris.
3. Why would he do such a thing?
 

Urwumpe

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Well, there are many others but if the Captain sent the first officer into the cabin and then changed the door codes he'd be the only person on the flight deck and could do what he wants, including de-pressurizing the plane whilst being on oxygen and changing course.

Another cave-eat: The oxygen system is only meant to be used for short periods of time or with cabin pressurization active.

Flying for hours in high altitude with it without negative side-effects is not possible, for that you need a pressure suit (even for much lower altitudes than the US Airforce prescribes)
 

garyw

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Really? Page 27 of the official report states that Oxygen will last one crew member 27 hours with the cabin at 36,000ft.

So, terrible question but if the cabin is de-pressurized, how long do you stay on oxygen for to ensure that the passengers are dead? 20 minutes? 30?

Once done, re-pressurisation should not be an issue.
 

Urwumpe

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Really? Page 27 of the official report states that Oxygen will last one crew member 27 hours with the cabin at 36,000ft.

Oh fun, would need to look what is really written there and who was the amateur that wrote about it. Even breathing oxygen from bottles in 8000 meters does not protect you from the death zone (Less then 356 millibars of atmospheric pressure), it only allows you to stay longer before you slowly die of gradual hypoxia - 27 hours is a very long time there.

The problem is not staying alive with additional oxygen, but rather that your brain still degrades and you are making more and more mistakes, that will eventually kill you before the hypoxia does.

So, terrible question but if the cabin is de-pressurized, how long do you stay on oxygen for to ensure that the passengers are dead? 20 minutes? 30?

Once done, re-pressurisation should not be an issue.

Think more in hours. First of all, unless you are in a spacecraft, you are never that high above the sky that depressurization is instantly deadly. Some might die along they way, others would just loose consciousness and contract more or less brain damage. The partial pressure of oxygen in the air is low, but never automatically too low to survive, some humans handle hypoxia better than others.

For just 30 minutes, you would have enough people surviving it just well enough to fight you.

Another problem: Can you really depressurize a plane cabin to ambient pressure in that time, by just opening both outflow valves and shutting off bleed air to the cabin?

And still it doesn't answer why the plane flew past Australia then.
 

garyw

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Think more in hours. First of all, unless you are in a spacecraft, you are never that high above the sky that depressurization is instantly deadly. Some might die along they way, others would just loose consciousness and contract more or less brain damage. The partial pressure of oxygen in the air is low, but never automatically too low to survive, some humans handle hypoxia better than others..

True enough, as with the cabin crew member on Helios Flight 522.

The interim report is interesting and very weird. It raises more questions than it answers unfortunately.
 

Urwumpe

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True enough, as with the cabin crew member on Helios Flight 522.

The interim report is interesting and very weird. It raises more questions than it answers unfortunately.

Sadly, that is what you have to expect of a good interim report. Would it answer more questions than it raises, it would be a good final report.

The big problem: We know nothing. We interpret observations which may or may not be accurate representations of the state and position of the aircraft. Even secondary radar can be wrong.

Short: We let engineers do quantum physics. The aircraft is right now spread over one half of the globe until its probability function collapses on the final resting site of the wreck. Right now we can only tell velocity or position, but not both at once.
 

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Oh fun, would need to look what is really written there and who was the amateur that wrote about it. Even breathing oxygen from bottles in 8000 meters does not protect you from the death zone (Less then 356 millibars of atmospheric pressure), it only allows you to stay longer before you slowly die of gradual hypoxia - 27 hours is a very long time there.

The problem is not staying alive with additional oxygen, but rather that your brain still degrades and you are making more and more mistakes, that will eventually kill you before the hypoxia does.

Yes, and the less pressure the less time you have. You can fill your lungs with pure low pressure oxygen and absorb none of it. The gas exchange requires the partial pressure of oxygen in your blood to be lower than that of the air in order to work. With low enough pressure, even if some oxygen is transferred, its not necessarily enough to maintain life much less consciousness. So like you said re-pressurizing the cabin would be a must.
 

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No it's not. Section 2 of your link points out that they need to have quick donning masks but they don't need to wear them.

Oxygen masks make communication difficult, reduce visibility and generally get in the way.
 

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Oxygen masks make communication difficult, reduce visibility and generally get in the way.

Same can be said about intentional decompression of the cabin.
 

garyw

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Australian oceanographers are puzzled about the lack of debris from missing plane

Australian oceanographers are trying to solve one of the aviation industry's greatest mysteries within a mystery: if MH370 did plunge into the Indian Ocean, why have no confirmed pieces of debris washed ashore?

The inability to find a single piece of the wreckage has confounded experts since the Boeing 777-200ER mysteriously disappeared on March 8, 2014, with its transponder switched off.
The original ocean drift models released by the government suggested the first debris from the plane would come ashore in West Sumatra, Indonesia, after about four months. That would have been July.
The difficulty facing oceanographers is that they don't have a definitive "splash point" – the place the aircraft plunged into the ocean – to pin their calculations to.
It is not clear which "splash point" the government used to come up with that calculation, but University of Western Australia oceanographer Professor Charitha Pattiaratchi says it must have been wrong.

"That's an impossibility," Pattiaratchi says. "The currents would never take debris to Indonesia."

SEVENTH ARC

UWA used several potential splash points in its calculations, all of which are on a portion of something called the seventh arc, which represents the plane's presumed flight path.
All of the UWA calculations have the debris ultimately moving east or west from the crash site, which would mean debris should have washed up on the Western Australian coastline by about September last year.
Given it is now March, oceanographers have been thinking through why that hasn't appeared to have occurred.
One possible explanation is that it has occurred; but the abundance of junk in the ocean has meant that nothing that can conclusively be identified as having come from MH370 has been found.

Pattiaratchi says two cyclones that went through the search area not long after the plane disappeared may have interfered – or quickly submerged – objects that might have otherwise drifted towards the coast.
Another explanation is that the plane did not disintegrate on impact, as expected. Rather, if the fuselage – the aircraft's main body – sunk relatively intact, there would be less debris.

DRIFT MODELLING

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau, which is the body responsible for the underwater search, is due to release reworked drift modelling soon.
David Griffin, the CSIRO oceanographer who heads the MH370 drift model task force, says tidal movements in the search zone are likely to "stir" debris in circular movements, where they might not reach land.
"That's entirely consistent with the lack of debris coming onshore," he said.
The tidal movement contrasts with the east-west/west-east movements nearer the equator that would quickly carry debris to shore.
The new drift model will rely on updated analysis of where the plane may have hit the water.

While there is some hope that finding debris would help locate the plane, and with it, its flight recorders, the time that has now elapsed might make drift models problematic.
If debris can be located shortly after a plane crash, oceanographers would likely be able to "back track" and locate the main wreckage using their knowledge of winds and tides in the area.
This happens regularly in environmental incidents. Oceanographers are often able to trace pollution that has washed up to a specific passing vessel, which can then be held to account.
Now that more than a year has passed since MH370 went missing, oceanographers would likely only be able to identify a large area that the plane was thought to have crashed in.
"The longer it goes the larger the search location would be," Pattiaratchi said.

The underwater search of the 60,000 square kilometre priority zone is scheduled to finish in late May. If the debris field has not been located by then, authorities would need to commit further funding to search lower priority areas or call off the search.

Source: http://www.afr.com/news/world/ocean...ver-mh370-debris-drift-models-20150315-143nyg
 

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What debris would remain afloat after several months at sea and be recognizable as aircraft parts to average person walking on the beach?
 

Urwumpe

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What debris would remain afloat after several months at sea and be recognizable as aircraft parts to average person walking on the beach?

Actually many things - especially of the inside of the cabin. Life vests for example.
 

garyw

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Possibly even personal effects of the passengers, wallets, etc. Even a single wallet or purse with ID would provide some sort of closure.
 

Urwumpe

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Also, some aircraft parts are created by inflating "metal balloons", which would also have low enough density to float - and such parts are rarely used elsewhere and could often be identified to a specific type of aircraft.
 

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and a metal piece from the aircraft with a serial number stamped on it would provide another set of clues.
 

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Debris found washed ashore on Reunion Island

Debris found washed ashore on Reunion Island is being checked to see if it's from MH370. Not much more than that at this stage.

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Source and more: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/29/africa/mh370-debris-investigation/index.html?sr=tweb0729mh370
 
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