Experiments you would send aloft on XAP

[Lunar_Lander]

Hi everybody !

Donald Piccard suggested me an experiment that could be done on his XAP flight to the mesosphere and he suggesed me to give you an description of it for examination.

His idea was to take some readings of objects sliding down an inclined plane both on the ground and in the mesosphere. Up there, the gravity will be a minute amount lower than on the ground, which will change the Normal force and of course also the coefficient of friction.

In the paper I wrote about the flight (downloadable on www.mesasphere.com) I suggesed a gravity meter based on a mercurial barometer (this had been proposed for an Italian North Pole experdition in 1928).

So, what do you think about that experiment and are there more experiments for gravity determination?

Cheers,
Lunar_Lander


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Addendum:

My physics teacher told me yesterday, that taking measurements on an inclined plane would be too coarse compared to the small changes of g.

He said it would be better to have a weight hanging on a piezo crystal and then you would have to measure the voltage which the crystal produces.

 

[Lunar_Lander]

Topic expanded

Hi everybody,

I decided to expand the topic to the question: What experiment would you send up on XAP? Suggestions are welcome!

Cheers,
Lunar_Lander

 

[TSPenguin]

I suggest attaching a mirror to the downside to measure light absorbtion and indirectly so particle/aerosol densities via shooting at it with a laser. Having an on board system to measure those values localy would be interesting too.

To my knowledge such measures have only been done in fast moving objects, a slow moving craft might reveal hidden structures or patterns.

EDIT: My knowledge needs to get shot. How stupid would humanity be if we didn't already do that?!

 

[Lunar_Lander]

What this thread is for

Hi everybody,

just a little explaination what this thread is for. I'm cooperating with Mr. Donald Piccard who invented XAP and the new hybrid balloon system that will be used for it.

The flight will eventually reach about 150,000 feet altitude, but the most important thing is, that there should be as many scientific instruments and experiments on board. There will be some kind of "workbench" outside, where experiments by students are exposed to the conditions outside, and which are remote controlled from the inside of the cabin.

The float at the highest altitudes should last 24 hours (to have one day-night cycle). Future flights could be of two-/three- or four-/five-day duration.

And now you are welcome to participate in this mission here by your suggestions (as TSPengiun already did) !

 

[simonpro]

What are the constraints regarding size and mass of the payload?

 

[Lunar_Lander]

And after describing what this is all about, I have one suggestion also: There was an Italian Airship expedition to the North Pole in 1928 by Umberto Nobile in the Airship Italia.

One of the scientific objectives was to measure the gravity in different places in the Arcitc. Usually this is done with pendulums, but due to the long time which is taken up by such a measurement, another method was devised, and this was to obtain gravity readings with a mercurial barometer. This instrument was to be used on the ice and on board the airship (when the engines were shut down).

I don't have the description of the instrument here right now, but it shows that this mercurial barometer was able to measure g.
As the balloon doesn't have engines and will be quite stable during the float, this could make a good experiment.

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@simonpro: I'll ask Donald Piccard about the mass, for the size we think about a spherical capsule which is 9 feet in diameter, and will have enogh space in the middle for two seats and a table which is the instrument panel. So all the space on the walls can be used for instruments (and of course the "balcony")

 

[simonpro]

I may have a few experiments that may be suitable for such a flight. Can't promise anything as they're student experiments from my uni, so it's up to them to decide. Give me as much info as possible and I'll pass it on.

 

[Lunar_Lander]

That sounds great! At this time, there is not much info about the things you requested:

The weight of the payload will be variable, because XAP is a modular vehicle in which the number of helium gas cells can be varied. So for more payload more gas cells are attached.

I think the figure I gave (9 ft diameter capsule) could be used as a preliminary size, maybe one instrument could range form very small up to the size of an office bin (I think that's a good value to start, maybe there can be bigger instruments in the future).


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@simonpro: How big and how heavy would the single experiments be? Are my data bits useful at the moment?


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Hi everybody,

I wanted to expand my description I gave by the areas your experiments could be in:

Physics, Chemistry, Geography, Meteorology, Astronomy and Biology

Also you could say, whether you experiment is for all three flight classes, or only either for the 24 hour flight, the three-day flight or the five-day flight.

 

[simonpro]

Just to say I haven't forgotten this thread, just got a lot else to do just now.

 

[TSPenguin]

How about letting paper planes fly?
If they are marked and could be sent back or reported online it would be great.
Scientificaly it is not of a great value but I can see no harm in it either way.

 

[Papaloon]

Peanuts and paper aeroplanes

Jay Fiondella owns a restaurant in Santa Monica, California on the U.S, west coast. It has a floor littered with peanut shells as he serves copius peanuts in the shell. One of his patrons carried a peanut to the Moon and back, which Jay keeps on display.

If you could design a paper aeroplane which could maintain a course, instaed of spiralling randomly, it would be interesting to observe the glide ratio at the diferent altitudes on its descent.

Could it have a bimetal rudder control that would keep it oriented by sunlight, like a steering sail on a sailboat uses the relative wind to mantain a course?


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For a "Paper airplane that doesn't track, see "By Request: The Drop Sonde" part way down the site at www.N6US.com. That device has bi-axial dihedral so that it stabilizes in two dimensions as it falls in the third.

That has been used by balloon pilots to visually ascertain the wind currents below them. If it was used in conjunction with a geometrically oriented glider it might serve as a base line reference.

What do you think? Could you observe and calibrate this from 50 km away? How?

 

[Lunar_Lander]

Yes, such a bimetallic rudder control should work, but there should be a device that would control whether heating the bimetal causes a turn to the right or to the left (or pitch up/down), I think.
When the bimetal cools, the rudder should return into it's "zero" position.

If the drop sonde needs visual contact, some kind of magnifying mechanism is required. But a better solution could be some kind of radar tracking (either from the balloon or from the ground, but I think a ground radar would be better). For this, the surface of the paper planes must be made of metal partially of course.

 

[RisingFury]

There's a variety of things to choose from the basic stuff like temperature, pressure, air density,... to some more stuff like air composition, various radiation levels and if a particle detector is small enough...

I looked through the site and I couldn't find a list of what's already included... now, given that not even basic variables are known right now, I'd think a list hasn't yet been made, but as soon as there is one, please let us know to see what you've got on it.

This looks like a very interesting missing. I hope it succeeds 100%!

 

[Lunar_Lander]

@RisingFury: Thanks for the wishes !

At the website you'll find three Mediafire links, which contain a little scientific paper written by me. This is only a proposal and there you can find a list of instruments I would take aboard.
An official list is of course not yet ready, but maybe my list halps for the moment.

(or did you already find these PDF files?)

 

[Papaloon]

Drop sonde

Lunar: The idea of radar observation is great. The drop sonde could just as well be made of aluminum foil. Then it should be a 90 degree corner so that it reflects perfectly. Will a corner section fall as stably as the wedge shpwn?

 

[RisingFury]

(or did you already find these PDF files?)

Ah, just checked out the experiments. Impressive

Here are a few things worth considering:

At high altitudes, air is not nearly a perfect gas anymore. Might wanna carry out experiments to determine the Mach number at different altitudes. And some other experiments that might affect parameters because of thin air...

Also a particle detector (if small and light enough) to measure the high velocity particles from the Sun.


I'm gonna try thinking of more...

 

[Lunar_Lander]

When we change the wedge into a corner section we will have different aerodynamics, that is for sure. When I imagine the air streaming around a corner section, I think that the air will stream around the object like it would be "cut" at the edge of the corner. That should provide some stability, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would like to add why the radar should be ground-based: Radar uses really much electric power and having a radar on-board would cut into the power reserves severely. Also the whole radar installation should be quite heavy, another point to leave the radar on the ground.

@RisingFury: How does the Mach experiment work? Can you give an explaination?

Which particle detector should be on-board in your opinion? Ionization chamber, cloud chamber, spark chamber, or a different device?

I would like to add some devices to measure the atmospheric electricity. This has been measured in balloons since the first scientific flights and if I remember correctly, the last electric measurements in the stratosphere were done on Stratolab-High 2 in 1957 (at about 25 km).
On-Board should be a Gerdien condenser which mesures the conductivity of the air and an electrostatic probe to measure it's potential.

 

[AstroCam]

So, with XAP, is it capable of putting payloads into orbit?

Anyway, i recommend putting numerous small size high resolution cameras all around the ballon; in addition to all the scientific data, having some extremely detailed 3D panoramic shots at that altitude would be excellant, and may have scientific value.

On the subject of the peanut/roll of quarters/stamps kind of issue, why don't we design and produce an offical Orbiter Spaceflight Simulator mission patch and fly that up in the ballon? If we could get the Orbiter community to interact with and influence real life aerospace missions - that would be the ultimate.

I for one would love an orbiter mission patch - don't know where i;d put it or what i;d do with it, but i would love to have one. 'nuff said

EDIT: By 'small size' i mean on the same order of size as the cameras you can buy for RC blimps/mini-helicopters, if not smaller

 

[Lunar_Lander]

The camera idea is very good-a camera pointing downward can be used to estimate the balloon's altitude from the pictures (by photogrammetry). I would use Flash memory (SD Cards) for recording the images, what do you think?

The idea of the patch is great! I'll forward it to Mr. Piccard.

I would also like to have a small telescope on-board, with the opportunity to take pictures through it in different bands of the spectrum and to observe the sun (with a sun filter of course). Would be an exciting thing to have something like "First Light" on the flight plan :lol:!

 

[RisingFury]

Yea, flash memory really is a "cheap" way of storing data. Small and light and I think it's a good idea.

About particle detectors... I'd put on as many as you can fit on with the weight and size limitations.


-----Posted Added-----


Here's a cool experiment that has connections to the speed of sound:

Wavelength - h
Speed of sound - c
Frequency of sound emitted - V

H = c/V

As sound waves travel through air, they form denser and thinner areas through the air. Inside the pipe, you have propane or some other flammable gas and holes in the top of the pipe. Where the air is denser, it pushes more propane out, thus producing larger flame.

The idea is that you keep your frequency the same and as air gets thinner with altitude, the speed of sound will drop and will also drop the wavelength. You can measure where the dense area of air are and thus accurately calculate the speed of sound.

Now, of course at 50 km, there wouldn't be enough oxygen to burn propane and would obviously pose too much of a risk, so you'd have to have some other pressure measuring device instead of propane holes. Also, you'd need a powerful speaker and sensitive pressure meters as well, to be able to measure the very thin air at high altitudes.

The measurement could be repeated every few kilometers of altitude to get an accurate graph of how the speed of sound changes altitude and pressure.

I don't know how high sound speed measurements have been taken, but keep your eyes open to other factors that might have an effect on the speed of sound such as the composition of air at high altitudes and possibly even temperature.


I'll try to think of some more stuff. Keep us up to date on how the preparations and missions go. It looks like a very interesting project and might just stumble on some really cool discoveries.