Project $$$ for Forum/yourself exchange for help on autopilot

PhantomCruiser

Wanderer
Moderator
Tutorial Publisher
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
5,600
Reaction score
165
Points
153
Location
Cleveland
Speaking of which... I might have a line on some alcohol here is a few minutes. The batch of "apple pie" is supposed to be ready for pickup today.
 

Lisias

Space Traveller Wanna-be
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
346
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Website
www.youtube.com
But I am not sure, if this really helps in this context, since the worst harm that I can see here for the helpers is a high threat of alcohol intoxication this weekend.

It was just a thought that came to my mind about the drowning man example - it was that comment I was criticizing.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,588
Reaction score
2,312
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
It was just a thought that came to my mind about the drowning man example - it was that comment I was criticizing.

Well, the moral of the story was, that the man was given adequate help three times before drowning, but refused for waiting for better help. And then complained to God why he did let him drown.
 

Lisias

Space Traveller Wanna-be
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
346
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Website
www.youtube.com
Well, the moral of the story was, that the man was given adequate help three times before drowning, but refused for waiting for better help. And then complained to God why he did let him drown.

My perception of the history is that he drown due three egocentric "helpers" who let him die because they wasn't asked properly.

The guy can be a jerk (or chances are that he was just panicked and delusional), but yet, three other people choose to let him die instead of doing the right thing - took the guy from the waters.

No ego worths a life, and this history states exactly the opposite: that it's ok to let someone die just because he wasn't able to ask for help the "right way".

---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

The bottom line:

If you are able to help and are willing to do it, just do it.

If you are not able or are not willing to help, just don't - without blaming the guy for it.
 

jedidia

shoemaker without legs
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
10,842
Reaction score
2,105
Points
203
Location
between the planets
Approach by his back,

Actually, you DO approach a drowning man from the front (if possible... usually you just approach him from the direction you're coming from). The last thing you want to do is to startle him. You do however keep a safe distance of 3 to 5 meters and try to calm him down if he's in panik. If he doesn't calm down, you wait until he passes out and goes under.
I have both a lifeguard brevet and basic fire fighter training, btw :p
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,588
Reaction score
2,312
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
My perception of the history is that he drown due three egocentric "helpers" who let him die because they wasn't asked properly.

Have you ever bothered following the full story? I have the impression, you are missing a lot there, what happened in other threads before, before getting to these two escalations in this thread. And even in this thread, I question your perception a lot.

Reducing the many people tried their best to help and dedicate a huge part of their lifetime to his problems to "three egocentric helpers" makes me pretty angry.

Seriously: Nobody who tried to help in the past weeks has said less, than I could have said about his problems - and nobody turned him down or did not respect him as equal despite his problems. It is not about what you describe as "Using the formally correct way to ask for help" (which I consider really insulting). It is all about expectations.
 
Last edited:

N_Molson

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
9,272
Reaction score
3,244
Points
203
Location
Toulouse
I was told a history when young. A firefighter taught me to never approach a drowning man by the front.

Approach by his back, grasp him firmly by the neck - to keep his head above the water, *and* also to choke him if he became a risk to the mission.

Well I followed some "advanced" swimming training which included rescuing drowing people, and I remember that advice too. First rule is "better one person missing than two". Indeed a cooperative approach is the best, but if the person is in full panick, which is not unlikely, you might have to take extreme measures to guarantee your own safety. :yes:

About this thread, I simply stated my firm conviction than introducing money in addons (by any direct or indirect way) is a threat for the free Orbiter itself. There are several addon developers that would be more than happy to have a possiblity to make money with that, so any breach would quickly become a highway. And we would have "addons of the poor", made by the goodwill of amateurs, and "addons of the rich", made by professionals. The Orbiter community would be split in 2 categories, and I don't want to see that happen. Now I decline any responsability for anyone taking offense of that point of view. :2cents:
 
Last edited:

Face

Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,390
Reaction score
577
Points
153
Location
Vienna
About this thread, I simply stated my firm conviction than introducing money in addons (by any direct or indirect way) is a threat for the free Orbiter itself. There are several addon developers that would be more than happy to have a possiblity to make money with that, so any breach would quickly become a highway. And we would have "addons of the poor", made by the goodwill of amateurs, and "addons of the rich", made by professionals. The Orbiter community would be split in 2 categories, and I don't want to see that happen. Now I decline any responsability for anyone taking offense of that point of view. :2cents:

Nah, as long as it is not GPL, it sure is totally fine. :p
 

Lisias

Space Traveller Wanna-be
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
346
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Website
www.youtube.com
Have you ever bothered following the full story

Yes. But I was criticizing your criticizing, not what you was criticizing.

Reducing the many people tried their best to help and dedicate a huge part of their lifetime to his problems to "three egocentric helpers" makes me pretty angry.

That's my point. You are taking this as it was about you. Its is not.

You are responsible for your feelings, not anyone else.

Focus on the facts, not in your feelings, and things starts to be worked out.


Seriously: Nobody who tried to help in the past weeks has said less, than I could have said about his problems - and nobody turned him down or did not respect him as equal despite his problems. It is not about what you describe as "Using the formally correct way to ask for help" (which I consider really insulting).

Yes, I saw it. And yet, it was ridiculously simple to solve the guy's problem.

I have no doubt that he could had done a better job while asking for help, but seriously - being the problem so simple, it appears to me that a better job on hearing him could also be done by others.

How you can lead others to better ways without hearing them first?


It is all about expectations.

I could not agree more.

---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

About this thread, I simply stated my firm conviction than introducing money in addons (by any direct or indirect way) is a threat for the free Orbiter itself. [...] The Orbiter community would be split in 2 categories, and I don't want to see that happen.

I don't have a problem with this. but I don't have a problem either if this community decides it's a problem. :)

I think, however, that Mr Schweiger would probably have a problem with this matter, as he is doing this for free and I don't think he intends to allow others making money with his free work.
 

Enjo

Mostly harmless
Addon Developer
Tutorial Publisher
Donator
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,665
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Location
Germany
Website
www.enderspace.de
Preferred Pronouns
Can't you smell my T levels?
1) GPL doesn't prohibit paid work. Look at Linux kernel - most of new code is done by corporations.
2) Even if somebody makes money on work on addons, there's still the other side of the equation - somebody has to give him this money. Not only it's his money and he does what he wants with it if he has an abundance of it, but also he belongs to the community. Actually both sides do.
3) I personally see no problem in promoting productive members of the community this way. Especially when seeing the productive members bashed on this forum as if they had to beg for a special privilege to share their releases on this forum. I prefer doers over talkers and voting with my wallet is a good and practical way of expressing it.
4) Addons for the rich can still be downloaded by the poor :)


OT: I was taught (and practiced) that you have to approach a drowning man from the front, but you have to dive below him and catch him from the back. You reduce his panic and surprise him in one go!
 
Last edited:

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,588
Reaction score
2,312
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
That's my point. You are taking this as it was about you. Its is not.

Of course it is. I am also member of this community and I don't want to see any discrimination here. Neither from established members bashing new members. Nor from new members bashing established members.

Nobody here (except martins) is special. Or, if you are a traditional left voter: We are all special. :lol:

You are responsible for your feelings, not anyone else. Focus on the facts, not in your feelings, and things starts to be worked out.

Sorry, but I prefer to be human. In good and in bad times. Also, trying to responsible for your feelings is just like trying to command to flood. All you can learn is to realize that you have feelings and understand why you have them - and learn to live with them. Also, feelings can be a good guide to point you at things that you might have missed by rational thinking alone.

(A 99% solution by following your feeling is always better than a 100% solution that comes too late)


Yes, I saw it. And yet, it was ridiculously simple to solve the guy's problem.


I have no doubt that he could had done a better job while asking for help, but seriously - being the problem so simple, it appears to me that a better job on hearing him could also be done by others.

Yes, but especially because the problem was so simple, it was sure no deal to also expect him to learn doing this himself. Don't mistake that many here did not understand his problem. I am pretty sure, most did and did simply not realize how low his motivation was to try the suggested solution himself.

Which is why my own position to his offer was simple: Offering me $50 for the job would have been a deadly insult, if he would have done so directly to my person. It was an easy task that requires a lot more of time than effort. And my lifetime is not monetarily quantifiable. Would he have offered a $25 bottle of Whisky instead, it would have been a honourable offer. Of course I could buy two bottles myself for $50, but this would then be just another two bottles without anything special. What makes the bottle special is that it means that somebody has giving me a part of his life in exchange for a bit of mine... and of course, a bottle of Whisky is easier shared with friends than $50.

How you can lead others to better ways without hearing them first?

It is not about leadership here. Also, leadership is more than just telling people what they want to hear. It is about making them do what is necessary and make their personal goals converge with the goals of the team.

We might be a bit anarchic here, but usually this community worked well by letting people lead themselves and learn how to do things themselves, instead of relying on others to do it.

I don't get any satisfaction if somebody I was helping is starting to depend on me. I feel more satisfied if my help resulted in this person being able to help others.
 
Last edited:

Enjo

Mostly harmless
Addon Developer
Tutorial Publisher
Donator
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,665
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Location
Germany
Website
www.enderspace.de
Preferred Pronouns
Can't you smell my T levels?
We might be a bit anarchic here, but usually this community worked well by letting people lead themselves and learn how to do things themselves, instead of relying on others to do it.
Back to the context - it used to work a decade ago. Now there are many more other entertainments (Kerbal, Facebook, tablets, etc.), therefore we rarely see any freshblood programming. People like me and you on the other side are too busy working for rents and will have a hard time getting back to hobby programming. This is why when I see somebody younger doing some good work, I have no problem in seeing him financed. However I definitely don't mean that I expect anybody to perform the financing. Just promoting the tolerance for it.
 

Face

Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,390
Reaction score
577
Points
153
Location
Vienna
So to get back on the topic: did the OP pay the 50$ to Meson for his excellent service or not?

Would be interesting to know if this kind of business actually works here, since donation-ware needs allowance AFAIK, but direct market transactions like this seem to be "free". Is this forum (Addon Development) the best place to offer work and/or jobs on decent prices?
 
Last edited:

Lisias

Space Traveller Wanna-be
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
346
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Website
www.youtube.com
Sorry, but I prefer to be human. In good and in bad times. Also, trying to responsible for your feelings is just like trying to command to flood.

There's nothing good coming by further arguing on this. :)


Yes, but especially because the problem was so simple, it was sure no deal to also expect him to learn doing this himself. Don't mistake that many here did not understand his problem. I am pretty sure, most did and did simply not realize how low his motivation was to try the suggested solution himself.

As long as the guy has adequate background on the matter.

It's easy for a guy who attended Microsoft's 1015A course to understand quickly how things work on VS 2013 and how to code Dialog driven applications on it (by an example). If you took formal classes on Finite States Machines and Messaging Passing IPC on High School, it became ridiculously simple - 80% of the development time is so spent searching on that fscking Microsoft Documentation for the correct Control (and how to pass/receive data from it) you need.

For people that are still learning C++ and/or are trying VS 2013 by the first time, however, it's commonly more effective a tutoring style approach, what's basically a step by step on the process explaining the meaning of each step.

Baby steps.


Which is why my own position to his offer was simple: Offering me $50 for the job would have been a deadly insult

And exactly why you think that your feelings about this matter should prevail over the feelings of people that don't find it insulting?


It is not about leadership here. Also, leadership is more than just telling people what they want to hear.[...]

We might be a bit anarchic here, but usually this community worked well by letting people lead themselves and learn how to do things themselves, instead of relying on others to do it.

Anarchy is the lack of authority, not leadership. Who is more experienced on determined subject tends to be the leader when such subject matters.

Learning is a process commonly more effective when a tutor is available to lead the process. There's a reason we got teachers when kids.

There's a lot to be learnt from experience - and there's no time enough on a lifetime to experience everything you need by yourself.


I don't get any satisfaction if somebody I was helping is starting to depend on me.

So don't help him and forget about.

I don't see why your lack of satisfaction should impair the satisfaction of people that don't think exactly like you.

Learning is a process that invariably follows the cycle: Dependency, Transition and Independency. It's ok you don't have the needed patience for the first two stages, but I don't see the need on suppressing the will from the ones that have it.
 
Last edited:

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,588
Reaction score
2,312
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
It's easy for a guy that attended Microsoft's 1015A course to understand quickly how things work on VS 2013 and how to code Dialog driven applications on it (by a example). If you took formal classes on Finite States Machines and Messaging Passing IPC on High School, it became ridiculously simple - 80% of the time is spent searching on that fscking Microsoft Documentation for the correct Control (and how to pass/receive data from it).

Yes. And then you need 4 years to define, design, implement, test and deploy a Hello World application.

Seriously: You need no permission to program without any of that. There is no good or bad code. There is only code that works and code that does not work. And to work can be as simple as "Runs most of the time". Or can include requirements like "Can still be maintained after 8 years of development".
 

Face

Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,390
Reaction score
577
Points
153
Location
Vienna
80% of the development time is so spent searching on that fscking Microsoft Documentation

It's fascinating how "fscking" became a legitimate substitute for ":censored:ing" in CS circles lately. In light of the unixoid origin of the fsck command, especially in combination with Microsoft it looks funny. :thumbup:
 

meson800

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
405
Reaction score
2
Points
18
So to get back on the topic: did the OP pay the 50$ to Meson for his excellent service or not?

Would be interesting to know if this kind of business actually works here, since donation-ware needs allowance AFAIK, but direct market transactions like this seem to be "free". Is this forum (Addon Development) the best place to offer work and/or jobs on decent prices?

Yes he did. :cheers:
I still would have helped even if this thread was free...

Let's not turn this thread into another "License Mega-wars thread", it seems to be the way its going :uhh:
 
Last edited:

Face

Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,390
Reaction score
577
Points
153
Location
Vienna
Yes he did. :cheers:
I still would have helped even if this thread was free...

Let's not turn this thread into another "License Mega-wars thread", it seems to be the way its going :uhh:

Cool. Good to know that this scheme works here.

As for the license thread: if it goes that way I'm sure the appropriate part will be merged with the mega-wars thread, anyway, so that's not such a big problem.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,588
Reaction score
2,312
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Will fix code for donations to "Pro-Asyl"? :hmm:
 

Lisias

Space Traveller Wanna-be
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
346
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Website
www.youtube.com
It's fascinating how "fscking" became a legitimate substitute for ":censored:ing" in CS circles lately. In light of the unixoid origin of the fsck command, especially in combination with Microsoft it looks funny. :thumbup:

To tell you the true, this was being used since late 90's, at that time on Linux mailing lists.

As an interesting Off Topic, did you know that Microsoft had published its own version of Unix on the 80's? It was called Xenix.

They sold the thing to a company called Santa Cruz Operations, and that piece of... bad cluster... became called SCO Unix. A friend of mine had the bad experience of working with this - he stated to me "This piece of junk is the Microsoft Windows of the Unix World". It rendered tons of laughs when I explained to him about the SCO Unix past.

(on a side note, you can infer who funded SCO to promote all that Unix IP fiasco)

---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 AM ----------

Yes. And then you need 4 years to define, design, implement, test and deploy a Hello World application.

Just 4 hours. :lol:

But once you did it, you library the thing and never bother again - with a huge benefit: you know how things work and know how to fix when something goes wrong. ;)


Seriously: You need no permission to program without any of that.

And ideally should need no permission to program with any of that neither.

How do you implement Dialog Boxes for the Scenario Editor?

---------- Post added at 02:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 AM ----------

Let's not turn this thread into another "License Mega-wars thread", it seems to be the way its going :uhh:

I was thinking (I do that sometimes), how about a new thread on The Basement? I agree we messed this thread enough.
 
Last edited:
Top