Human Needs of ...

[Usquanigo]

Mod Note: This is a continuation of the Mars500 thread. This post is the first that does not have any meaning to the thread. Please try and keep it civilised.

Moonwalker, you are right that it's risky socially - but only in a certain sense.

It's hard for me to really word this, but, the social risk is the taboo and the entire "rule set" we've manufactured around it. Trust me when I tell you that those rules and risks do NOT have to be present. It is (at least, can be, among people mature enough to handle it the right way) nothing more than a very fun activity among friends. If you strip off the emotion we try to force upon it, then it's really not a problem at all. And I speak from both experience and observation. There are (many) such people, and this isn't fantasy.

That said, sure, there's a time and place for everything, and if other things have you pre-occupied and there just isn't time, then you buckle down and do the job. But your system will get out of balance over time, and the best way to stay refreshed is to have a little. This goes for both men and women.

And if we choose to ignore it altogether, then we may end up with a situtation where it happens on it's own, and under the usual social taboos, and suddenly we have a true recipie for potential disaster.

2 to 3 years isn't the end of the world as that goes, but you could have a happier, healthier, sharper, and closer crew if they are all compatible in that sense. And the longer the mission, the greater the risk of it happening on it's own under taboo, if brushed under the carpet and ignored.

 

[Suzy]

Moonwalker, I really don't know who is behind your nickname, and I surely didn't want to dwell too much into your personal affairs, but you've mentioned this first. So I have to say the following: In case you are a lady, it's okay with you. If you are a man older than 50, it also sounds like normal. But otherwise, if you are also never felt "the urge", you would certainly want to see your doctor. Such a long abstinence of sex may get you sick with prostatitis or into a different kind of trouble.

A person can go without it their whole lives and still be healthy. It's a matter of perspective!

But that (and something someone said above) brings up a point - this is poorly done. You either need to get couples, or, perhaps even better yet, swingers (even swinger couples). 520 days is a hell of a long time, and humans need sex, at a minimum, every bit as much as they need food, water, air, and sleep. Intimacy and romantic contact is a nice bonus, but not quite as important as the raw primal need for physical release (with a member of the preferred gender - studies have shown there are different chemical releases, even in the absence of love, that are both craved and needed, and can't be achieved solo).

That's the worst way to disrupt a crew! There would be jealousy and rivalries in no time. It's much better for morale if the crew remain celibate. (Incidently, do hormone suppressant drugs exist?)

 

[Usquanigo]

That's the worst way to disrupt a crew! There would be jealousy and rivalries in no time. It's much better for morale if the crew remain celibate. (Incidently, do hormone suppressant drugs exist?)

That's a matter of opinion, that appears to be driven by "normal" societal taboos. My own experience (and 1st hand observation) says otherwise.

It *could* be a way to disrupt the crew - but with the right choice of crew, it would be the way to bring them together and keep them at the peak of performance. Refer to my previous post.

 

[SiberianTiger]

2 to 3 years isn't the end of the world as that goes, but you could have a happier, healthier, sharper, and closer crew if they are all compatible in that sense. And the longer the mission, the greater the risk of it happening on it's own under taboo, if brushed under the carpet and ignored.

Well, I hate it to kick the weapon out of your hand :lol: in this argument, but here's it:
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-09/ff_starcity?currentPage=all

And no matter how stressed anyone gets, they can't even enjoy a little release by manipulating their own joystick: One of the effects of weightlessness is reduced blood flow to the lower half of your body. The rumor in Star City is that many have tried in vain to get it up out there. "There vas top-secret program of this," Driga says. "But the man could not perform. Viagra vill not help."

-----Post Added-----

A person can go without it their whole lives and still be healthy. It's a matter of perspective!

This is not a matter of perspective, this a simple physiology. Excuse me, but how much do you know about man's physiology and what problems do abstinent men experience?

Incidently, do hormone suppressant drugs exist?

The classic is the Bromine salt. That's what patients of mental hospitals were pumped with to keep in the past century to nullify their sexual activity. Don't know about hormones. But I doubt either would be good for spacemen. In addition, see my post above - that might not just be needed.

 

[Usquanigo]

Well, I hate it to kick the weapon out of your hand :lol: in this argument, but here's it:
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-09/ff_starcity?currentPage=all

Interesting point.

However, from what I remember reading, you atrophy VERY quickly, even with in just a few months, badly enough that hitting even Mars grav could be a problem, if you just floated your way there. (to say nothing of Earth grav after the return trip)

It would seem that the *best* way to get there (and back) would be with spinning sections, at a minimum for crew quarters, lounge, and gym. Not sure about what happens to plants, and/or if you could keep them growing (but I'm sure you'd want to try - natural vegetables as a food source and CO2 scrubber, plus many other non-food CO2 scrubbers), but they might benefit from some artificial grav too.

And if you have that..... then we return to the basic problem.

 

[Moonwalker]

Moonwalker, I really don't know who is behind your nickname, and I surely didn't want to dwell too much into your personal affairs, but you've mentioned this first. So I have to say the following: In case you are a lady, it's okay with you. If you are a man older than 50, it also sounds like normal. But otherwise, if you are also never felt "the urge", you would certainly want to see your doctor. Such a long abstinence of sex may get you sick with prostatitis or into a different kind of trouble.

Well, I'm male and nearly 30 years old. But I'm often told to look like about 23, and not like a single at all. In other words: my appearance contradicts my lifestyle, which still totally amazes my parents and friends. The thing is that I'm not really that much interested in sex like some people obviously are. And since I still did not meet a girl yet which blew me away, I don't really need "at least" sex just to be happy. I also don't feel like my days become numbered because I don't have it yet. And there are many people who still live that way around the 30 mark.

What would you say about the pope for example? Or about people who even can't have sex? It's indeed a matter of perspective, like Suzy mentioned. For me it's just that my life and mood does not depend on sex. We obviously live in a world where sex is marketed almost every second. The media implies that sex is something which almost anybody has, each day, and that life even is driven by sex. In fact, reality and peoples daily lifes look totally different. But sex is not really a taboo, it is just totally overrated by some people and the media on the whole. Sex does not make people more healthy. That's almost the same myth like masturbation can make you sick, or if you just eat tomatoes each day, you can't get cancer anymore. A good psychological condition is the basis to be healthy, along with sport. Sex is not the be-all and end-all in life. But if people are young, usually below ~25, they think a different way still...

To get back on topic: I don't think that sex is a criteria of flying to Mars. Astronauts/scientists require very different qualities, but not sex to prevent social problems or to reflief stress and be healthy. Those kind of persons are not really qualified for a serious scientific trip to the Mars I think. And I can't imagine that governments and responsible space agency persons would decide to send a kind of swingers club to Mars. We also don't need it and don't have it aboard the ISS.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, I'm male and nearly 30 years old. But I'm often told to look like about 23, and not like a single at all. In other words: my appearance contradicts my lifestyle, which still totally amazes my parents and friends. The thing is that I'm not really that much interested in sex like some people obviously are. And since I still did not meet a girl yet which blew me away, I don't really need "at least" sex just to be happy. I also don't feel like my days become numbered because I don't have it yet. And there are many people who still live that way around the 30 mark.

Well, be worried, your chances for a very nasty kind of cancer are higher. But at least, you are free of all risks of the normal mating behavior of humans.

My personal medical expertize: You can easily go for many months without sex. Even as man...maybe even especially as man. But your body is designed for a more or less regular sexual life. Abstinence is not the norm, it is a sacrifice. If you decide against your nature, you should make it worth it - and that rule is important for all other natural behaviours. It will be stressful for your body.

I doubt astronauts are abstinent off-mission: Being astronaut implies a intact and stable social life, which is rarely achieved by being abstinent single.

But also: Your sexual drive is also like all other drives, controllable by your own decisions. If you have reasons not to follow it, a sane human can do so. You don't need to eat, if you are hungry. And unlike hunger, you can't die because of the lack of sex... but you can easily die if you forget your brain.

 

[Usquanigo]

To get back on topic: I don't think that sex is a criteria of flying to Mars. Astronauts/scientists require very different qualities, but not sex to prevent social problems or to reflief stress and be healthy. Those kind of persons are not really qualified for a serious scientific trip to the Mars I think. And I can't imagine that governments and responsible space agency persons would decide to send a kind of swingers club to Mars. We also don't need it and don't have it aboard the ISS.

Moonwalker, you illustrate the taboo, on the whole, but especially right there.

The implication is that people who are normal anmials (complete with all the emotions and urges) are somehow "bad". Likewise that those same urges are bad.

It's a physiological thing we are talking about. As Urwumpe said, you won't die (right away) from abstaining, nor will you die (right away) from restricting your diet to only one unnatural form, but without supplements it WILL mess with things and cause problems for the long haul. (prostate problems, neurological chemical imbalance (in the form of stress and less than optimum upkeep), social problems, etc, etc)

I think you and I are looking at totally different concepts of the word "need". I'm not talking about things that are required to keep the body functioning at a minimum (air, water, food, etc). I'm talking about things that keep everything operating at it's peak of performance.

It has been shown, in proper research sutdies, that there are nearly countless effects and benefits of sex on a persons physiology. Not least of which is improved mood, morale, reduced stress, and focus. Likewise, it's so well known that it has always been in popular culture - ever hear that someone just needs to get laid when they are cranky and irritable? It's not just an old wives tale, and it works for women too.

Perhaps it's not a "requirement" for a mission in the same sense as fuel and O2, but you basically have 3 situations -
1 where people manage to do without and suffer through it, which is what everyone wants to avoid the taboo (proof of the taboo in fact), but where things stand too good of a chance of spiraling out of control (reduced performance, increased fatigue, stress, interaction issues, etc, etc)

1 where people find a strong attraction and do what they "aren't supposed to" and potentially causing issues either between those people, or those people and the rest of the group (jealousy, greed, romantic involvment and rejection, etc)

and finally 1 where everyone on-board is open, mature, and accepting of all of it. Where there are no taboos or shame, and no (undue) fear of attachment and the problems that brings with it - where they pair off as convenient whenever the mood strikes and stay happy, alert, and refreshed the whole time.

Maybe not quite a big orgy with hte whole crew at once, but hey, that would be good too.

However..... there is a caveat to the last case, it takes a certain kind of person to handle that sort of thing. Many, dare I say even most, people can not. THAT is the effect (and evidence) of our social taboo about the whole subject. And those who CAN are every BIT as qualified as anyone else, in fact, they are MORE centered, and in a group, MORE qualified as a result.

So yeah, you're right, it CAN be done without, my only point is it brings risks, and given that the risks are only to avoid confronting a taboo, I hardly see them as worth it (no matter how unlikely one wishes to view them as being).

 

[Suzy]

...

The implication is that people who are normal anmials (complete with all the emotions and urges) are somehow "bad". Likewise that those same urges are bad. ...

Resisting those urges is a part of self-control - self-discipline and thus maturity - which I can't see as a bad thing!

The "Fems in Space" site has a page on "The case for an all-female crew to Mars" (though this is to do with physiology). Send an all-female crew and there wouldn't be any worries about relationship issues!

...
This is not a matter of perspective, this a simple physiology. Excuse me, but how much do you know about man's physiology and what problems do abstinent men experience? ...

Not much :blush: ... But as a female I can vouch that abstinence doesn't do women any harm!

 

[Moonwalker]

Well, be worried, your chances for a very nasty kind of cancer are higher.

I don't think that anybody becomes cancer for not having sex for a few years. It's one of todays myths. But I can understand that some men think/feel that way in case they don't get sex "soon" enough.

My individual experience with sex never was like WOW. Yes, it was a kind of fun, but at least to me it became boring once done a few times. And I just don't need it yet. There are things I prefer more than sex at the moment, no matter how long that moment takes. Maybe that will change in future, who knows, in case the right girl appears. But it does not matter yet. Life takes place only at present, and if you feel fine there is nothing wrong. It does not matter how often you love, it does not matter how long you love, it just matters if you've ever loved in your life and if you're lucky or not. That's at least what I think about it. And believe me, I'm not unlucky only because I haven't seen naked female for years. I'm not an uncastrated dog or rabbit.

I realize that a possible crew choice for a manned mission to Mars is rather narrow, if we talk about males

 

[Usquanigo]

Resisting those urges is a part of self-control - self-discipline and thus maturity - which I can't see as a bad thing!

The "Fems in Space" site has a page on "The case for an all-female crew to Mars" (though this is to do with physiology). Send an all-female crew and there wouldn't be any worries about relationship issues!

We aren't talking about self-discipline and control. Those are taken as assumed for any group of people with the clout to even be prospects. So please, let's move past that.

As for equating self sacrifice with maturity... people will deprive themselves of sleep, or food for a religious cause - is that "maturity", or is that a performance killer? Inflicting pain upon yourself could be seen as discipline too, so does that mean Emo's are disciplined?

It's really the other way around, to be able to handle it without getting all wrapped up in a ball of emotion over a necessary physical act that should be *fun*, that is maturity. (doesn't mean there is no place for emotional attachment and involvement, but that's reserved for that special someone, not a playmate or teammate)

A quite large portion of females are bi or lesbian, do they not have relationships and relationship issues too?

Not much :blush: ... But as a female I can vouch that abstinence doesn't do women any harm!

Like Moonwalker, just because you don't view it as harm, or don't see the harm, doesn't mean it's not there. And there again, there are different levels and ideas of "harm" too. I know we are from different "planets" but we aren't THAT different.


-----Post Added-----

I don't think that anybody becomes cancer for not having sex for a few years. It's one of todays myths. But I can understand that some men think/feel that way in case they don't get sex "soon" enough.

My individual experience with sex never was like WOW. Yes, it was a kind of fun, but at least to me it became boring once done a few times. And I just don't need it yet. There are things I prefer more than sex at the moment, no matter how long that moment takes. Maybe that will change in future, who knows, in case the right girl appears. But it does not matter yet. Life takes place only at present, and if you feel fine there is nothing wrong. It does not matter how often you love, it does not matter how long you love, it just matters if you've ever loved in your life and if you're lucky or not. That's at least what I think about it. And believe me, I'm not unlucky only because I haven't seen naked female for years. I'm not an uncastrated dog or rabbit.

I realize that a possible crew choice for a manned mission to Mars is rather narrow, if we talk about males

Do we need a big screen TV and cable with high speed internet? Or does it dramatically increase the quality of life to the point where it could be called a need?

Rhetorical questions.

It's great that you are comfortable with things the way they are for you. That is an ideal. Nobody here is telling you you are making the wrong choices in life, so please don't feel that way.

However, please realize that what you "feel" and what actually exists aren't always the same thing. Just because you don't feel or see any har, or damage does not mean that it's a myth.

In fact, Urwumpe is right. It's physiology. And it's NOT a coincidence that men are getting cut off by their wives and simultaneously we are seeing prostate issues go through the roof. It's not a myth, it's not a coincidence, it is cause and effect. It's just part of the plumbing of the whole thing. And that's just one part of it, that could actually be take care of solo, but there are neurochemical events that are also very important that require another person (or more lol), and the benefit there is mutual.

 

[Moonwalker]

A quite large portion of females are bi or lesbian,...

I think that this is also a myth, and a rather male one Just like there are sooo many nympho. I did not experience anything like that until today, and I've seen some parties and discos. Or maybe I'm just blind and boring :lol:

At least I don't think you'll find more lesbians or bi females than gays anyway.


-----Post Added-----

In fact, Urwumpe is right. It's physiology. And it's NOT a coincidence that men are getting cut off by their wives and simultaneously we are seeing prostate issues go through the roof. It's not a myth, it's not a coincidence, it is cause and effect.

Says who?

 

[dougkeenan]

An all-lesbian flight to Mars could very well use webcams for financing the mission.

So they've got that going for them.

 

[Star explorer]

jeez guys don't turn this into a thread about sex thats peoples "private" matters. this is an all ages forum

An all-lesbian flight to Mars could very well use webcams for financing the mission.

So they've got that going for them.

ok even though i said i dont think this should turn into a thread about sex i have to comment on this. It would probly get more viewers than when the moon landing was live on tv.

 

[Urwumpe]

Says who?

Actually any current urologist. God must have been a civil engineer: Only civil engineers are able to construct a waste water pipeline through a fun park.

There is a mathematically robust correlation between sexual activity and diverse forms of cancer. Especially prostate cancer, which is honestly (My grandpa had it) the most ugly form of cancer you can get.

The problem is just, that all you get is a higher risk - just like smoking, you can still grow old with it. But the chances are higher that you won't.


-----Post Added-----

Not much :blush: ... But as a female I can vouch that abstinence doesn't do women any harm!

At least no physical, but seeing some reactions on women to the sight of little children I doubt that there is no risk of psychological harms... But I have still no understanding of the various operating systems used by women...

 

[SiberianTiger]

An all-lesbian flight to Mars could very well use webcams for financing the mission.

So they've got that going for them.

Removing the actual flying to Mars will dramatically improve the project's breakeven!

 

[Moonwalker]

There is a mathematically robust correlation between sexual activity and diverse forms of cancer. Especially prostate cancer, which is honestly (My grandpa had it) the most ugly form of cancer you can get.

Concerning the information service of the german cancer research center, minor sexual activity is a famous discussed risk of prostate cancer (this thread is a good example), but does not contain a risk of prostate cancer. Also the famous alcohol intake and sexually transmitted diseases for example, have been either doubtless confuted, or could not be proven as risks. And most people don't know that a lot of people live with prostate cancer until their natural death without even knowing it. But that doesn't matter in this context anyway.

Well, people love to put almost everything into numbers, statistics and on average. Especially if some scientists and bureaucrats publish some interesting stuff. On average each German owns, depending on the federal state, between 4000€ and 9000€, including welfare recipients. And if the temperatures in Siberia increase from -40°C to -30°C, the inhabitants still get chilblains, but certain people call that dangerous global warming. I can put my right leg into boiling water, and my left leg into dry ice. On average I'll be still fine. And of course, if my sexual activity is minor or stops for a while, certain famouns numbers, which try to represent my cancer risk, increase.


If humans don't believe in god, they don't believe in nothing, but in any number of things. That's the chance for prophets, and they appear in droves.

Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Prohets and apocalypse heralds are still present. But they're not religous anymore. Instead, they present oneself as empiricists today. But what most of them do publish, is as useful as cartomancy.

 

[SiberianTiger]

jeez guys don't turn this into a thread about sex thats peoples "private" matters. this is an all ages forum

This already is a thread about sex. But please, don't listen to those people. Most of them are terribly wrong. Listen to me. Get adult and meet a lady with whom you will share a mutual love. Engage her in a rightful marriage and live long and happy thereafter. It is really this simple.

 

[Urwumpe]

Some people also believe more into the voices inside their heads, than into the world outside.

 

[Hielor]

The problem I see with a sexually active crew would be the possibility of pregnancy. Unless all the males or all the females are (genuinely) sterile, regardless of what preventative measures you take there's always the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. There are even cases where a person has had a vasectomy and still produced a child, so even medical sterilization cannot always be relied upon.

I doubt most astronauts would want to undergo sterilization for a trip to Mars, and I doubt that a space agency would consider the risk of a space baby to be a risk worth taking. For that reason, I doubt that any space agency will official sanction sexual activity among its crew.

Unless, of course, it's the aforementioned all-lesbian crew. I would totally subscribe to that.