Request InterSTELLAR vessel

Bloodworth

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Well, since Interstellar travel is several order of magnitude too complex Maybe we should just focus on an interplanetary design.

It's 10 kilometer for Anti-matter/matter, but if you use less powerful thruster you may reuse data from other's design and 1km could even become too long.


You miss the point entirely. Try reading the ENTIRE thread; starting from the beginning. The whole POINT of the thread was to create an intersteller vessel, not an interplanetary one. The whole idea is to create a ship that can take advantage of orbiter galaxy when it is released; not to simply fly around the solar system. If I'd wanted that, there are over a hundred such ships available at orbit hangar.
 

T.Neo

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Well, since Interstellar travel is several order of magnitude too complex Maybe we should just focus on an interplanetary design.

It is? I thought the objective was to focus on the vehicles, the actual method of going from system-to-system would be covered by something like Orbiter Galaxy.

You could fly to Mars with a Valkyrie though, but it will be very very overkill.

It's 10 kilometer for Anti-matter/matter, but if you use less powerful thruster you may reuse data from other's design and 1km could even become too long.

Less power in terms of less thrust? Or less Dv?

It would probably be better for lower Dv to drop the beam core design and go for antimatter catalysed fusion. The length of the spacecraft would then drop somewhat, I'd imagine.

The size of the fuel tank could be easily estimable if we had an idea of the specific impulse and the power of the thruster you could use.
It's not like we ask you to actually build it.

I can make the fuel tank in the shape of a hamburger, doesn't mean it will be very realistic. :rolleyes:

The mass should be easily calculable if the mass and mass fraction of the vehicle is known. Fuel volume should be calculable if the density is known. What I'm struggling with is the shape of the fuel tank. All I can assume it is is the toroidal structure that makes up the engine, since no other high-volume structures can be seen near the ends of the ship. I'm not sure how the dynamics of fuel storage would work there.

As for the shadow shield, they say that the closer of the radiation source the better it is.

It apparently works on the same principle as a solar eclipse; it can be far smaller than the engine, but if it is at the right distance, it will eclipse the entire engine as seen from the crew module.
 

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I have some memories of being involved a number of years ago with a website called "The Lunar institute of technology" http://www.ibiblio.org/lunar/school/ the site went defunct a number of years ago and some pages are missing but one concept they were working on was a Enriched Bussard Ram Scoop. Basicly what you do is fire string of pellets of fuel before you launch. Use fuel that you've got in fuel tanks to get you up to speed and then scoop up the fuel as you go along. By the time you reach your destination your fuel tanks are full again and you have slow down and maneuvering fuel upon arrival. The ship was called the Explorer class.

Unfortunately the Project sort of went defunct a number of years ago.

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunar/school/InterStellar/Explorer_Class/ExplorerClass.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunar/school/InterStellar/Explorer_Class/External_fueled_Drive.html

Unfortunately so much has gone away over the years.
 
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T.Neo

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Basicly what you do is fire string of pellets of fuel before you launch. Use fuel that you've got in fuel tanks to get you up to speed and then scoop up the fuel as you go along. By the time you reach your destination your fuel tanks are full again and you have slow down and maneuvering fuel upon arrival. The ship was called the Explorer class.

The trick then is to shoot the pellets towards the destination fast enough that they will be there when you are, but slow enough that you will be able to catch up...

The Ram Augmented Interstellar Rocket is an interesting concept IMO. It operates on a similar principle to the Bussard ramjet concept; it collects reaction mass from the interstellar medium, but does not rely on it for fuel thus alleviating some of the problems encountered by the original concept...
 

garyw

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The trick then is to shoot the pellets towards the destination fast enough that they will be there when you are, but slow enough that you will be able to catch up...

Sounds like a fusion runway where you'd use one ship to lay down pellets for other. To me it sounds like a waste of time or an idea that I don't fully understand.

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=315
 

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Sounds like a fusion runway where you'd use one ship to lay down pellets for other. To me it sounds like a waste of time or an idea that I don't fully understand.

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=315

No second ship needed for it. You would use something like a lunar mounted mass driver to fire your pellets. Once you have a stream of them laid out you launch the ship, it uses a bussard ramscoop to not only scoop up fuel pellets but also gas as it travels along. Basicly an enriched Bussard ramjet concept. Not only does it clean up after itself, but if you do it right, you have a full gas tank you can feed into the reactor once you get there for getting around.
 

T.Neo

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You would use something like a lunar mounted mass driver to fire your pellets.

I can't help thinking that it'd be an utterly huge mass driver.

Then again it might fare well compared to the utterly huge laser array needed for a lightsail...
 

Izack

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You know, a hamburger might not be such an unrealistic design, if you use it as your shadow shield.

Disclaimer: I will not be held responsible for any death caused by this hilarious diagram.
 

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T.Neo

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You know, a hamburger might not be such an unrealistic design, if you use it as your shadow shield.

That actually makes a bit of sense... and it is advantageous to place the hydrogen in front of the shadow shield, and place the antihydrogen behind, to shield the antihydrogen. Pumping the hydrogen to the magnetic coil would be a problem, IMO, let alone trying to get the antihydrogen there.

Unless the toroidal structure is not actually where the anihillation takes place, but rather the magnetic coil only, and perhaps the supporting equipment for the droplet radiator.

Hydrogen/antihydrogen could be shot out in front of the ship, anihillate in the middle of the torus and be deflected backwards by the magnetic field, perhaps? I don't know if the charged pions would live that long...

Disclaimer: I will not be held responsible for any death caused by this hilarious diagram.
:rofl:
 
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n72.75

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Tribersman_FR

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You miss the point entirely. Try reading the ENTIRE thread; starting from the beginning. The whole POINT of the thread was to create an intersteller vessel, not an interplanetary one. The whole idea is to create a ship that can take advantage of orbiter galaxy when it is released; not to simply fly around the solar system. If I'd wanted that, there are over a hundred such ships available at orbit hangar.

I know that's the idea from the start.

But following your logic nobody should do any spaceship addons because there already spaceship that can do everything.

It is? I thought the objective was to focus on the vehicles, the actual method of going from system-to-system would be covered by something like Orbiter Galaxy.

You could fly to Mars with a Valkyrie though, but it will be very very overkill.

Not really, it's design is a very practical way of saving mass and the radiation problem still exist on the interplanetary scale, especially for crewed flight.
but yes I'm pulling you out of topic.

Less power in terms of less thrust? Or less Dv?

It would probably be better for lower Dv to drop the beam core design and go for antimatter catalysed fusion. The length of the spacecraft would then drop somewhat, I'd imagine.
Less Dv yes, but the AM-BEAM design can reach 90% of C and you would lose the opportunity to show Relativist effect if reproduced later.

AM Gaz or Plasma require hydrogen as a reactive-mass.

I can make the fuel tank in the shape of a hamburger, doesn't mean it will be very realistic. [.....................]

If you were thinking about Anti-matter fuel tank, it will be probably electromagnetic, take his energy from the thruster. And as the most precious part you can hide it at the center of the design. Unlike the pictured design.
If you use Hydrogen to reach 10% of C as the site say those tank will look like those we know spherical of cylindric.

But as for the Thrusters themselves, I can only guess they'll be surrounded by liquid cooling pipe.

It apparently works on the same principle as a solar eclipse; it can be far smaller than the engine, but if it is at the right distance, it will eclipse the entire engine as seen from the crew module.

What must be hided is the source of radiation, and everything that was in contact with it (the coolant fluid)

But on the picture of the site the matter/antimatter reaction seem to happen on the center of the tor and be directed on the side, making the shield well placed.
but if you place the thruster around, the shield will need to be placed between the part of the thruster where the reaction occur and the crew.

That will be shaped oddly I confess but you only have to create a Shadow. You can still reach a high level of verisimilitude.

Here is two design proposal, I modified from something else.

Orbiter.png


Orbiter2-1.png

On this last one the tank serve as shadow shield, but you can put on at the center.
 

T.Neo

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So...is anyone volunteering to build a Valkyrie? :yes:

I have been toying with a model in anim8or, if it is good enough and I can put the design together into something that seems like it could work, I'll be more than happy to give it a shot.

Not really, it's design is a very practical way of saving mass and the radiation problem still exist on the interplanetary scale, especially for crewed flight.

Agreed, totally. HVIPS is an interplanetary spacecraft with the engines in the front... the basic idea for that configuration came from Valkyrie.

Less Dv yes, but the AM-BEAM design can reach 90% of C and you would lose the opportunity to show Relativist effect if reproduced later.

A beam core with a Dv of 500 km/s has a tiny mass ratio. One capable of achieving 0.92c has a far, far higher mass ratio. I don't see why any ship would have to lug around all that equipment for getting to relativistic velocities, just to travel at a few hundred km/s. If you want to simulate a fully-fledged valkyrie later, perhaps the answer would be to modify the original sourcecode and/or mesh.

AM Gaz or Plasma require hydrogen as a reactive-mass.

I think it would make more sense to use a fusion engine, utilising perhaps a small amount of antimatter. I wouldn't be surprised if you got a higher exhaust velocity for less antimatter that way...

If you were thinking about Anti-matter fuel tank, it will be probably electromagnetic, take his energy from the thruster. And as the most precious part you can hide it at the center of the design. Unlike the pictured design.
If you use Hydrogen to reach 10% of C as the site say those tank will look like those we know spherical of cylindric.

The problem with utilising the antimatter reaction in the engine for energy is that the gamma rays released just pass through matter and you can't really derive energy from them (though they will heat things up through compton scattering). The uncharged particles also mostly go through things, and the charged particles are being used for thrust.

Perhaps then the particle beams used to send the fuel to anihillation could be used in a sort of "redshift rocket" arrangement, but backwards? Where the fuel is shot forward, where it collides, producing redshifted gamma rays that can be used for power, and then the anihillation products can be used for thrust, though I think this would seriously negatively affect exhaust velocity. Perhaps only a portion of the fuel could be used for this, instead of thrust. We can assume the magnets are superconducting, too.
 

Izack

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So, what about the Vespucci? Who owns it now? Is Nectioch (or the others who made it) still around?

Latest version is for Orbiter 2003, so I'm not sure if I should even bother testing it in O2010.
 

Tribersman_FR

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Agreed, totally. HVIPS is an interplanetary spacecraft with the engines in the front... the basic idea for that configuration came from Valkyrie.

Yes like that, except for huuuuuge mass. You could transport entire space station or landing base in one pass.
And I agree with something you said on the topic, I have yet to see a UGCO airless planet lander.

A beam core with a Dv of 500 km/s has a tiny mass ratio. One capable of achieving 0.92c has a far, far higher mass ratio. I don't see why any ship would have to lug around all that equipment for getting to relativistic velocities, just to travel at a few hundred km/s. If you want to simulate a fully-fledged valkyrie later, perhaps the answer would be to modify the original sourcecode and/or mesh.

I think it would make more sense to use a fusion engine, utilising perhaps a small amount of antimatter. I wouldn't be surprised if you got a higher exhaust velocity for less antimatter that way...

I think that using fusion or the AM to propel hydrogen are more a way to reduce the cost. I've heard that antimatter don't grow on three.
depending of how efficient your fusion engine is compared to the AM ones.

The problem with utilising the antimatter reaction in the engine for energy is that the gamma rays released just pass through matter and you can't really derive energy from them (though they will heat things up through compton scattering). The uncharged particles also mostly go through things, and the charged particles are being used for thrust.
Well, if the ship is supposed to be fully autonomous you can just put a fusion reactor in it.
Anyway we are going to have heat to radiate.

Perhaps then the particle beams used to send the fuel to anihillation could be used in a sort of "redshift rocket" arrangement, but backwards? Where the fuel is shot forward, where it collides, producing redshifted gamma rays that can be used for power, and then the anihillation products can be used for thrust, though I think this would seriously negatively affect exhaust velocity. Perhaps only a portion of the fuel could be used for this, instead of thrust. We can assume the magnets are superconducting, too.
You lost me.
But talking about such technology, we better have invented high temperature superconducting magnet.
 

T.Neo

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Yes like that, except for huuuuuge mass. You could transport entire space station or landing base in one pass.

I've wondered about very high capacity transfer vessels before. :hmm:

Though I think if you are transporting in bulk it might make sense to use hohmann orbits or something near that.

I've heard that antimatter don't grow on three.

It is very difficult to make antimatter, and you can't ever get an efficiency over 50% (or something like that) because it takes double the energy to produce than it yields.

Current antimatter production abilities with research equipment are good for nothing more than very small amounts of antimatter, but Robert Forward suggested an efficiency of 0.01% (or thereabouts) could be reached with current technology. That would probably still not yield many tons of antimatter as needed by Valkyrie, but rather small amounts for antiproton catalysed fusion.

The originators of the Valkyrie suggest Asimov Arrays, basically covering the Moon with particle colliders and solar panels. I have a suspicion that it would be easier to build such structures in space, where they would be in freefall and antimatter would not have to be shipped out of a gravity well.

Well, if the ship is supposed to be fully autonomous you can just put a fusion reactor in it.

A relativistic starship? Supposed to have a crew, but it would make a good unmanned probe. It could have something like a fusion reactor, since we are carrying fusion fuel aboard the spacecraft already...

You lost me.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift_rocket"]Redshift rocket[/ame]. Use it for power generation, neglect the thrust from the particle beams.

But talking about such technology, we better have invented high temperature superconducting magnet.

Indeed. There have been reports of Palladium hydride having a transition temperature of -13 C, but reports of room-temp superconductivity have become a sort of "cold fusion" in terms of reputability. If palladium hydride is indeed a high temperature superconductor, a transition temperature of -13 C would be very cheap to achieve, compared to the temperatures currently needed for superconductors.
 
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Hartmann

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The big problem with a relativistic starship is the possible space particles, micrometeors and bigger objects.

A single particle can make huge damage at relativist speeds, and a good shield could be needed, also the shape of the spacecraft could be important .well protected fuel tanks, crew section, and other.
perhaps using a streamline design
 

Izack

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The big problem with a relativistic starship is the possible space particles, micrometeors and bigger objects.

A single particle can make huge damage at relativist speeds, and a good shield could be needed, also the shape of the spacecraft could be important .well protected fuel tanks, crew section, and other.
perhaps using a streamline design
Already accounted for. :thumbup:
From [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Valkyrie"]Project Valkyrie[/ame]:
At such high speeds incident debris would be a major hazard. While accelerating, Valkyrie uses a device that combines the functions of a particle shield and a liquid droplet radiator. Waste heat is dumped into liquid droplets that are cast out in front of the ship. As the ship accelerates the droplets (now cool) effectively fall back into the ship, so the system is self-recycling. During deceleration the ship will be protected by ultra-thin umbrella shields, augmented by a dust shield, possibly made by grinding up pieces of the discarded first stage.
 

eyu100

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It is very difficult to make antimatter, and you can't ever get an efficiency over 50% (or something like that) because it takes double the energy to produce than it yields.

Yes, but you get twice the energy back because the normal matter the antimatter annihilates with also turns into usable energy. So the overall maximum possible efficiency (energy out / energy in) is 100%.
 

Tribersman_FR

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I've wondered about very high capacity transfer vessels before. :hmm:

Though I think if you are transporting in bulk it might make sense to use hohmann orbits or something near that.

The main reason for high speed passenger craft is to reduce dramatically food, water, and radiation shielding.
High capacity cargo ship use the same tech except that if time isn't a problem you'll prefer to aim for the biggest Isp possible.

Historically I think we only needed fast cargo when we were competing or if we needed a feedback. (like "I Need to carry Helium3 from the moon or Jupiter")

btw a Valkyrie would be fun to land on a cradle on airless moon.

The originators of the Valkyrie suggest Asimov Arrays, basically covering the Moon with particle colliders and solar panels. I have a suspicion that it would be easier to build such structures in space, where they would be in freefall and antimatter would not have to be shipped out of a gravity well.
Until we wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient to build light sail carrying AM for uncolonized system than to produce said AM for both Ejection and Insertion but i'm not sure what would be the main criteria to determine which is better, only Laser and sail efficiency in comparison with AM production and utilization ?

As for Asimov Array, you'll need a lot of material to build those and the best source are planets.
But unless the planets is really tidally locked on the Sun (unlike mercury) you may prefer to put your solarplant in orbit around a Lagrange point for continuous exposition. (and avoid difference of temperature)

You may prefer a planet without atmosphere so you can "shoot" the cargo directly in space, if not, moving asteroids may sound interesting.

A relativistic starship? Supposed to have a crew, but it would make a good unmanned probe. It could have something like a fusion reactor, since we are carrying fusion fuel aboard the spacecraft already...
Entirely depend of the set-up, you are basically free to do everything you want. It may be crewed starship carrying humans sent to command super-AI sent there well before.
But there is a LOT of argument for unmanned probe/colonization mission.... or relativistic missiles war. (And I don't say that because I'm too lazy to plot a orbit insertion I swear !)

Redshift rocket. Use it for power generation, neglect the thrust from the particle beams.
So that's ok if we really need a lot of power, see above.

Edit :
So the overall maximum possible efficiency (energy out / energy in) is 100%.
Just a though : isn't a 100% efficiency impossible because of entropy ?
 
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