Flight Question launching the space shuttle

DGMP

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hello everyone. I want launch the shuttle to missons, but when I try to get high enough apoapsis, it cant even pass the first 60 Km. what do I do wrong?
well, I watched some tutorials & I did exactly what they did, but I get nothing.
I almost suspect that I dont have enough fuel for even launch XD...
thx for help.

oh & I dont understand how to control the payload doors. I just play with all the buttons until the doors are moving... can someone help with it?
 
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sitha241

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Hi..check in launchpad that your fuel in not unlimited and I think that K is for payload doors..
As I supose you go for full manual ascent first at liftof wait couple secs then roll the shuttle to the right as you wish (not too much like 30 deg) or if you have felling for manual roll manuver to get some desirable inclination ignore this..then slowly put pitch on shuttle so you end up at 40 deg at SRB separation at some 45 km then go till 3.5 km/sec to 20 deg and then roll shuttle up in 'right' position and just adjust pitch so you dont fall down and keep Apoapsis in front of you.As your periapsis goes to positive above ground throtle your engines down when Periapsis is at 40-50 km and discard External Tank and then move away from it and lit OMS engines and raise your periapsis to above 250 km..do same with apoapsis when on periapsis if needed.. :tiphat:
 

DGMP

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Hi..check in launchpad that your fuel in not unlimited and I think that K is for payload doors..
As I supose you go for full manual ascent first at liftof wait couple secs then roll the shuttle to the right as you wish (not too much like 30 deg) or if you have felling for manual roll manuver to get some desirable inclination ignore this..then slowly put pitch on shuttle so you end up at 40 deg at SRB separation at some 45 km then go till 3.5 km/sec to 20 deg and then roll shuttle up in 'right' position and just adjust pitch so you dont fall down and keep Apoapsis in front of you.As your periapsis goes to positive above ground throtle your engines down when Periapsis is at 40-50 km and discard External Tank and then move away from it and lit OMS engines and raise your periapsis to above 250 km..do same with apoapsis when on periapsis if needed.. :tiphat:

oh, I forgot that I already on unlimited fuel(for now...).
about the doors, I know how to get their control panel, but I said I dont have any idea how to control it properly. that means that I move the levers as I see right, until the doors are manipulated.
thanks for the guide, but I know already how to do peri-apoapsis balance. this part is unnecessary :)
 

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which shuttle? the default atlantis or one of the addon ones?
 

Cras

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oh, I forgot that I already on unlimited fuel(for now...).
about the doors, I know how to get their control panel, but I said I dont have any idea how to control it properly. that means that I move the levers as I see right, until the doors are manipulated.
thanks for the guide, but I know already how to do peri-apoapsis balance. this part is unnecessary :)

by the sound of it, you are using some shuttle that simulated the 13L panel, am I right?

In which case....now I am going off of memory of how it looks, you are gonna see four switches up two. 1 and 2 for the Doors. 1 and 2 for the Mech power.

Flip Door 1 and 2 to Enable, then look down and see the Open,Stop,Close switch bottom left. That activates the door sequence. If latches are simulated it may take over a minute for the center latches and starboard door latches to open before the starboard door begins to open up.

Flip Mech 1 and 2 to on, and that will enable radiator control. The four switches under those two are for the radiators. The two to on the left control the latches, unlatch the radiators. The two on the right are for stow/deploy.

That same panel also contains the KU band stow/deploy switch as well, so that might need to use that.

You are clearly not using Shuttle Fleet which does not simulate these switches. Though I recommend you give a look at Shuttle Fleet 4.8 It is superior to the default Atlantis for a number of reasons.
 

DGMP

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which shuttle? the default atlantis or one of the addon ones?
I dont have any addons, so yea, atlantis. but it doesnt really matter, does it?

by the sound of it, you are using some shuttle that simulated the 13L panel, am I right?

In which case....now I am going off of memory of how it looks, you are gonna see four switches up two. 1 and 2 for the Doors. 1 and 2 for the Mech power.

Flip Door 1 and 2 to Enable, then look down and see the Open,Stop,Close switch bottom left. That activates the door sequence. If latches are simulated it may take over a minute for the center latches and starboard door latches to open before the starboard door begins to open up.

Flip Mech 1 and 2 to on, and that will enable radiator control. The four switches under those two are for the radiators. The two to on the left control the latches, unlatch the radiators. The two on the right are for stow/deploy.

That same panel also contains the KU band stow/deploy switch as well, so that might need to use that.

You are clearly not using Shuttle Fleet which does not simulate these switches. Though I recommend you give a look at Shuttle Fleet 4.8 It is superior to the default Atlantis for a number of reasons.
I using this board:
http://www.orbiter-forum.com/gallery/data/512/payload_doors.png

I didnt understand what's the radiator for(at the DG, too). can you exlplain?

you didnt explain clearly, how exactly control the doors? it isnt connect with the radiator or the antena, right?

& I still dont know how to get the shuttle to orbit. I need the apoapsis in front of me, but how? the flight vector still keep to go downward, until it pass the horizon line & thats it, im lost & I really disappointed NASA... help please :(
 

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I dont have any addons, so yea, atlantis. but it doesnt really matter, does it?

It matters a lot as they have different controls, different manuals, different processes.
 

Xyon

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oh, I forgot that I already on unlimited fuel(for now...).

You cannot get Atlantis to orbit with unlimited fuel on. The vehicle relies on the fuel being burnt, otherwise she's too heavy to attain the right altitude. This is covered in the manual.
 

Urwumpe

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I didnt understand what's the radiator for(at the DG, too). can you exlplain?

it keeps the spacecraft cool by radiating thermal/IR radiation into space.

Remember that there is no air in space, that could cool the spacecraft. For preventing that the sunlight cooks the crew (and computers), all spacecraft are isolated and reflect most radiation from the sun away. Now, astronauts and all electrical systems also produce heat, that has to be transported away. The only long-term way to do that in space is by radiation, and that is what the radiators do.

On the Shuttle, the radiators are deployed with the payload bay doors, but if you need more cooling, you can deploy the forward radiators by rotating them away from the doors again and let them use both upper and lower side of them for cooling.

you didnt explain clearly, how exactly control the doors? it isnt connect with the radiator or the antena, right?

All mechanical systems in the Shuttle (= which are operated by a strong AC electromotor) use essentially the same procedure for operating them.

First, you activate power to the motor control assembly (MCA, each a large black box with many large and small relays) for example by the mechanical system switch. Then you decide in which direction the motor should turn (Open/Close). This switch sends a small logic signal to the motor control assembly, which then configures AC relays and connects power from an AC bus to the motor. There are about 20 MCAs in the Space Shuttle, each controlling multiple actuators (the "muscles" in the Space shuttle). Most of them are invisible inside the shuttle, operating valves. Only a small number is visible.

Every mechanical actuator in the Shuttle has two motors that work together on a common gear box. Each motor gets its electricity from a different AC bus and gets controlled by a different MCA. Once the payload bay doors are fully opened, small switches at the mechanics are closed and send a signal back to the MCAs, which then remove power from the motors again, stopping the motion before you accidentally overheat the motors.

On the real shuttle, you would also first have to unlatch the doors (they are locked close by many hooks so they are not ripped off during launch and landing), but the default Atlantis and Shuttle Fleet are simplified there, only SSU handles it currently.

Once the doors are opened, you can unlatch the forward radiators and deploy them if needed.

Also, you can deploy the Ku Band antenna. The Ku Band antenna could also be deployed when the doors are closed on the real Shuttle... bad bad bad idea, this can cause a small explosion and fire near the crew cabin. Always check that the doors are correctly opened before operating the Ku Band deploy motors or activating the antenna gimbals.

So, what do you do now?

First you check that all switches are in the position that they should have had before launch. Short: All disabled, all stopped, all indications are closed.

Then you activate power for the payload bay door mechanic systems (PL BAY DOOR SYS1 & SYS2 - ENABLE).

Now you check if the door indicators are still showing "CL" or closed. If not, call mama (mission control)

Then you flip the switch for the payload bay door actuators to open (PL BAY DOOR - OPEN) and keep it there until all indications are fine and the doors have opened. This should take you about 2x20 seconds for the center line latches, 30 seconds for the forward and aft latches and 63 seconds for each door to open. (The default Atlantis only simulates the 63 seconds for the doors) A lot of time to pass, use a timer there for not missing it.

If all has opened or more twice the expected time has passed, flip the PL BAY DOOR switch to STOP again. If door not open, call mama.

For deploying radiators and Ku band antenna, you need to activate the PL BAY MECH PWR, this is for mechanism inside the payload bay, that can only be used once the doors are opened.

For the radiators, first unlatch them (hold switch in position) then deploy them. Reverse for stowing the radiators: First stow the radiator, then latch it.

Ku band antenna is simply "DEPLOY" until deployed and back to GND.

DIRECT STOW is used in emergencies, when the normal stow operation malfunctions. This uses a bit more convincing force and does not try to rotate the antenna into the orientation for stowing first. (You need to do an EVA first to rotate the antenna back into place, should it be impossible to stow it that way)

(Source: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/567074main_PI_135_F.pdf )

& I still dont know how to get the shuttle to orbit. I need the apoapsis in front of me, but how? the flight vector still keep to go downward, until it pass the horizon line & thats it, im lost & I really disappointed NASA... help please :(

First of all: Don't launch too steep. The Shuttle needs horizontal velocity and vertical velocity in a very narrow corridor, when the SRBs separate.

Next: Watch the launch replay first to learn how it should be done (approximatly).

The real shuttle does actually drop a few kilometers during ascent after SRB separation again before it becomes fast enough to gain altitude again. That is not automatically bad. It should just not be too much, stay above 95 km altitude if possible.

The Shuttle has only VERY little tolerance for errors, even the Orbiter default one, that has a lot of performance margin more than the real one. You not only have to be able to fly into orbit with a DG to pilot this one, you have to be very efficient. No guessing, but a feeling of what the spacecraft really needs as input to fly you into space.

Try to get a Shuttle Fleet copy from somebody, who still has decentral backup, if you need an reliable autopilot and don't want to learn how to install SSU and use it. SSU is not for beginners and the learning curve is not just steep - it is hyperbolic.
 
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DGMP

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You cannot get Atlantis to orbit with unlimited fuel on. The vehicle relies on the fuel being burnt, otherwise she's too heavy to attain the right altitude. This is covered in the manual.
what this is mean? I failed to launch because I had unlimited fuel? it make no sense... how?

it keeps the spacecraft cool by radiating thermal/IR radiation into space.

Remember that there is no air in space, that could cool the spacecraft. For preventing that the sunlight cooks the crew (and computers), all spacecraft are isolated and reflect most radiation from the sun away. Now, astronauts and all electrical systems also produce heat, that has to be transported away. The only long-term way to do that in space is by radiation, and that is what the radiators do.

On the Shuttle, the radiators are deployed with the payload bay doors, but if you need more cooling, you can deploy the forward radiators by rotating them away from the doors again and let them use both upper and lower side of them for cooling.
yea I know the role of the radiator in real life, but I didnt see any difference between stowed & opened radiator in the simulator. is it just for realistic gameplay?

All mechanical systems in the Shuttle (= which are operated by a strong AC electromotor) use essentially the same procedure for operating them.

First, you activate power to the motor control assembly (MCA, each a large black box with many large and small relays) for example by the mechanical system switch. Then you decide in which direction the motor should turn (Open/Close). This switch sends a small logic signal to the motor control assembly, which then configures AC relays and connects power from an AC bus to the motor. There are about 20 MCAs in the Space Shuttle, each controlling multiple actuators (the "muscles" in the Space shuttle). Most of them are invisible inside the shuttle, operating valves. Only a small number is visible.

Every mechanical actuator in the Shuttle has two motors that work together on a common gear box. Each motor gets its electricity from a different AC bus and gets controlled by a different MCA. Once the payload bay doors are fully opened, small switches at the mechanics are closed and send a signal back to the MCAs, which then remove power from the motors again, stopping the motion before you accidentally overheat the motors.

On the real shuttle, you would also first have to unlatch the doors (they are locked close by many hooks so they are not ripped off during launch and landing), but the default Atlantis and Shuttle Fleet are simplified there, only SSU handles it currently.

Once the doors are opened, you can unlatch the forward radiators and deploy them if needed.

Also, you can deploy the Ku Band antenna. The Ku Band antenna could also be deployed when the doors are closed on the real Shuttle... bad bad bad idea, this can cause a small explosion and fire near the crew cabin. Always check that the doors are correctly opened before operating the Ku Band deploy motors or activating the antenna gimbals.

So, what do you do now?

First you check that all switches are in the position that they should have had before launch. Short: All disabled, all stopped, all indications are closed.

Then you activate power for the payload bay door mechanic systems (PL BAY DOOR SYS1 & SYS2 - ENABLE).

Now you check if the door indicators are still showing "CL" or closed. If not, call mama (mission control)

Then you flip the switch for the payload bay door actuators to open (PL BAY DOOR - OPEN) and keep it there until all indications are fine and the doors have opened. This should take you about 2x20 seconds for the center line latches, 30 seconds for the forward and aft latches and 63 seconds for each door to open. (The default Atlantis only simulates the 63 seconds for the doors) A lot of time to pass, use a timer there for not missing it.

If all has opened or more twice the expected time has passed, flip the PL BAY DOOR switch to STOP again. If door not open, call mama.

For deploying radiators and Ku band antenna, you need to activate the PL BAY MECH PWR, this is for mechanism inside the payload bay, that can only be used once the doors are opened.

For the radiators, first unlatch them (hold switch in position) then deploy them. Reverse for stowing the radiators: First stow the radiator, then latch it.

Ku band antenna is simply "DEPLOY" until deployed and back to GND.

DIRECT STOW is used in emergencies, when the normal stow operation malfunctions. This uses a bit more convincing force and does not try to rotate the antenna into the orientation for stowing first. (You need to do an EVA first to rotate the antenna back into place, should it be impossible to stow it that way)

(Source: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/567074main_PI_135_F.pdf )

1. ok, I understood how to operate with the manual. but what the *** is "call mama"?

2. I can use EVA for controlling the antenna? can I do some functional things with the antenna or is it just for gameplay, too?
First of all: Don't launch too steep. The Shuttle needs horizontal velocity and vertical velocity in a very narrow corridor, when the SRBs separate.

Next: Watch the launch replay first to learn how it should be done (approximatly).
well I can pass the 100 Km.. im trying to keep the vector above but it doesnt obey my manuever.
I have watched the launch replay, I tried to do what they did, but im still falling.
tried to operate the auto pilot, but it cant even pass the 40 Km.

oh & 2 more questions:
is the SCRAM engine supposed to improve what? how is that helps the glider? (im already knows how it works, so just tell what I supposed to do with it)
i've learned how to reenter, but how do I enter the exact place of the base? I always missing them...
 

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Your best bet is to read the manual a bit. But, to short form your questions, here you go...

Turn unlimited fuel off!

what this is mean? I failed to launch because I had unlimited fuel? it make no sense... how?

Makes perfect sense, your craft is too heavy.

There are a few tutorials that you've found, they should get you going, but Atlantis can't make orbit with unlimited fuel for reasons already stated.

Here are some key commands for you (also in the documentation)
[K] Payload Doors open/close
[Ctrl] and Ku band antenna deploy/stow
[Ctrl] and [Space] opens the RMS dialog box
[G] landing gear up/down

Atlantis (stock) has a LUA script that will get you to orbit, you could run it and watch the acsent profile and mimic that manually.

Also you could download the Shuttle Fleet, but for it you will definitely have to read the manual. It's must more complicated than the stock Atlantis, and, you can have all the shuttles (Columbia, Challenger, Endeavour, Discovery, Atlantis) and some that never were (Intrepid, Constellation, Constitution, Enterprise and Moonraker).

There's another add-on called Wet Workshops using a modified Atlantis, but you hold on to the external tank and use it as the base block of a space station. It has a pretty neat launch autopilot too (kind a hard to get accustomed to at first, but it works very well).
 

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what this is mean? I failed to launch because I had unlimited fuel? it make no sense... how?

The engines on the Shuttle aren't powerful enough get a full tank into orbit. Once the SRBs are gone they have to accelerate the Shuttle to orbital speed, and counter gravity until orbital speed is reached.
With a full ET gravity is going to win...... every time.
:cheers:
 
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Urwumpe

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yea I know the role of the radiator in real life, but I didnt see any difference between stowed & opened radiator in the simulator. is it just for realistic gameplay?

Has no effect on flight, but looks better.

1. ok, I understood how to operate with the manual. but what the *** is "call mama"?

In real-life astronautics: Call mission control for trouble shooting.

In Orbiter: Start again or fix it

2. I can use EVA for controlling the antenna? can I do some functional things with the antenna or is it just for gameplay, too?

No, that is just real-life shuttle. The Ku-Band antenna never fails in Orbiters default atlantic.

well I can pass the 100 Km.. im trying to keep the vector above but it doesnt obey my manuever.
I have watched the launch replay, I tried to do what they did, but im still falling.
tried to operate the auto pilot, but it cant even pass the 40 Km.

Don't try to fight gravity, fly with it. If you received enough push by the SRBs, you will simply follow a ballistic arc and accelerate mostly horizontal (include the angle of the SSMEs: 10° pitch up or down, if you fly-heads down). You will distort the ballistic arc, drop slowly, and then reach a point where gravity, thrust and centrifugal force are balanced. Now you simply gain a few m/s vertical speed (about +50) until MECO (ideally, you reach the +50 when there is MECO, that wastes less fuel).
 

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I can help with this.

Recently I've been piloting the shuttle into orbit a lot. Your use of the word "apoapsis" and other things makes me think you played Kerbal Space Program before this. First, you have to see that an Earth orbital launch is *much* different from KSP.
I like to pitch over really early at around 2.7 - 3km in altitude. Velocity is going to be a HUGE part of this ascent, so you want to make sure you get quite a bit of velocity as well as altitude before the solid rocket boosters cut off. By the time the SRBs sep, though, I'm usually pitched over completely with my nose on the horizon, then I pitch back up a bit t get a little more altitude, generally focusing on an orbital altitude of about 200 kilometers. You can do a single burn to orbit (a lot easier with Earth than KSP) or you can burn to 200km and then shut the engine down and circularize at Apogee. But one thing is for certain, you want to make sure you squeeze as much orbital velocity out of this ascent as you possibly can. Fuel budget seems tight at first, but once you get a bit better with flight dynamics you won't have a problem.
 
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