IMFD Orbit Insert Problem

jambooger

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I am using IMFD 5.5. It has been alot of fun learning it but I have run into a real problem for me.

I am orbiting Jupiter and would like to transfer and orbit Europa. I use Target Intercept to leave Jupiter. Then I use Planet Approach to set up. Then I want to use Orbit Insert to achieve orbit. Thats where my problem occurs. I do not have a good enough Hyperbolic Arc around Europa for Orbit Insert to work.

Can someone help me understand what Im doing wrong.
Thanks
 

orbitingpluto

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What is the particulars of the orbit you have around Jupiter? Posting some screen shots of you IMFD setup or Orbit Mfd during the process could help.
 

Tommy

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Please post screenshots showing:

IMFD's Planet Approach - all set up but before the approach burn.

IMFD's Orbit Insert, with any error message it may be displaying.

IMFD's Map program, Ref Jupiter, TGT Europa, CNT p-europa, with SOI, Disp, and Int enabled. This should be after the approach burn.

Without this info all I can suggest is that you have Orbit Insert set for Jupiter, not Europa.
 

jambooger

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Ok hope this helps. I know its not perfect but It has worked great with Earths moon.
 

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Tommy

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Unfortunately, no help. You've reduced the image size so that I can no longer read the MFD's.
 

jambooger

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Ok I hope you can see them better now.
 

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Tommy

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Much better! Still don't have a solid answer, I'll try to squeeze in a test flight and get back to you - be at least 5 am GMT before I can get that done.

Did see some things that puzzle me. Planet Approach is set up for a retrograde orbit at Europa (Inc 179.9), yet seems to have you approaching for a prograde orbit. This may be because you may be using Planet Approach too soon - it's best to be closer to Europa's SOI first - about 2 or 3 "SOI's" away. Seems strange, I'll look in to that, but it shouldn't cause the problem with Orbit Insert.

I did notice that the dV required for insert is about 7km/s. That's a long burn - especially for a fully fueled DGIV. It's possible that that's just too much for Orbit Insert in this case - the burn would start before you even enter Europa's SOI.

Jupiter is HUGE, which results in very high velocities. It also means that it's moons have very small SOI's. This flight will be tricky at best, but it should be workable.

I'll get back to you when I can. In case I have difficulty, what are the PeA and ApA of your Jupiter orbit before the transfer?
 

jambooger

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This may be because you may be using Planet Approach too soon - it's best to be closer to Europa's SOI first - about 2 or 3 "SOI's" away. Seems strange, I'll look in to that, but it shouldn't cause the problem with Orbit Insert.

I'll get back to you when I can. In case I have difficulty, what are the PeA and ApA of your Jupiter orbit before the transfer?



Thanks for taking a look Tommy. I have tried this so many times I cant count. I have tried the Planet Approach burn at several different distances.

I begin Aligned with Europa and ApA and PeA = 5.772M


OK I Did it. I raised my orbit to 100M. All worked flawlessly. I did it several times with no problem. In the future any idea how I can tell if my Orbit is to low for the transfer.
 
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Tommy

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Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Unfortunately someone discovered how to enable encryption on their WIFI so I can't connect at home anymore. At any rate, you've already figured out the method I was going to recommend. It's possible to complete that transfer, but it would require that you perform the insert burn by hand. That's a VERY difficult burn to do by hand in this case, even the stock Prograde and Retrograde AP's aren't much use. Figuring out the correct orientation and where to start the burn would require a fair amount of practice and skill.

For the future, I'm going to explain a few things. Some of this you probably already know, but it's easier to explain this if I start at the beginning. Please don't feel I'm "talking down" to you if I explain the obvious (and other readers may not know some of it).

Jupiter is HUGE!!!! If we don't count the Sun itself, Jupiter has more mass than the rest of the solar system combined. It's extremely high gravity "compresses" the SOI's of it's moons. Europa would have a much larger SOI if it orbited any other planet.

When you transfer from an orbit that is much lower (or higher) than the target, you will have a large Relative Velocity when you reach the target. Combined with the smallness of the moon's SOI, this means you will pass through the moon's SOI quite quickly - in this case you would only be inside Europa's SOI for about a minute, maybe less.

The high Relative Velocity also means you will have a rather long insertion burn. In this case, your insertion dV was about 7km/s. That's a burn time of almost 14 minutes in a fully fueled DGIV with the default engines. It's close to 10 minutes even with the higher thrust engines.

Raising your orbit to 100M helped you in two ways. First, since you now have a much lower Relative Velocity, it will take longer to pass though Europa's SOI, which gives you more time for the insert burn. The lower RVel also means a lower dV is required for the insert, so the burn is much shorter. So you now have a much shorter burn, and a longer "window" in which to make that burn.

To help predict this in the future, the main clue will be the Cir value shown in Map. This value represents an estimate of how much dV will be needed to successfully insert into the target orbit. Keep in mind that this is an estimate, and will tend to be low at first. On this particular transfer, the Cir was estimated at a bit under 6km/s when you planned the transfer, and was a bit over 7km/s by the time you reached Europa.

Burn Time Calculator MFD is a very helpful tool for this, and many other, situations. It even will tell you how far you will travel during the burn (can be used to time braking burns when landing on airless bodies):

[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=4530"]Burn Time Calculator 2.0[/ame]

I believe BTC assumes limited fuel (and therefore mass reduction during the burn) so it won't be quite accurate if you have "Unlimited Fuel" enabled.

I'm sure there's math that will determine how long it will take you to pass through an SOI, but I'm not good at math. I've had enough practice that I've developed a "feel" for what will work and what won't. I make an educated guess at how long it will take to pass through, and ensure the burntime for insert is less. Orbit Insert uses a two body solution, and is reliably accurate only if you are inside the target's SOI before the burn starts.
 

jambooger

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Thanks Tommy for a wonderful explanation. When I read your post I always learn something. I will keep an eye on the Cir value in the future.
 

Mojave

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Tommy, thank you for that information; now I don't have to start a thread asking how to accomplish this seemingly difficult transfer.
 
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