Orbiter in 20 years

Krishnan

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Very interesting, glad to see Orbiter is healthy in Florida ;) ?

It is everyone of us job to promote Orbiter around us and on the Web. ? Orbiter has nothing like a PR departement.
I forced one of my friends to play Orbiter, he moved to hawaii. I do promote Orbiter in my KSP playing group.
 

MaxBuzz

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It could be interesting to try to "infiltrate" other space sims forums and try to shanghai people into Orbiter. And see if it has an influence on Google Trends ?
In China, there is a restriction on games for example on KSP, but these restrictions do not apply to scientific programs Orbiter should become very scientifically
the Orbiter also has a political bias, for example, only the American space program is present in it (I do not consider amateur mods)
 

N_Molson

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In China, there is a restriction on games for example on KSP, but these restrictions do not apply to scientific programs Orbiter should become very scientifically
the Orbiter also has a political bias, for example, only the American space program is present in it (I do not consider amateur mods)

Personally I think the stock package always lacked an "inline" multistage launcher (it would be useful to have the C++ SDK samples for that, as the code can be reused for many similar vehicles). IMHO the R-7 would be a logical choice, but that's my opinion.
 

Urwumpe

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Personally I think the stock package always lacked an "inline" multistage launcher (it would be useful to have the C++ SDK samples for that, as the code can be reused for many similar vehicles). IMHO the R-7 would be a logical choice, but that's my opinion.

What about something simpler?

 

N_Molson

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Yeah but let's be fair, the R-7 is quite an historical monument in the story of rocketry... Wouldn't have to be extremely accurate though, really something like Space Shuttle Atlantis. And a Soyuz spacecraft with it couldn't hurt, again for SDK purpose it would show how to code a parachute, separation of the different modules, some animations...
 

Urwumpe

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Yeah but let's be fair, the R-7 is quite an historical monument in the story of rocketry... Wouldn't have to be extremely accurate though, really something like Space Shuttle Atlantis. And a Soyuz spacecraft with it couldn't hurt, again for SDK purpose it would show how to code a parachute, separation of the different modules, some animations...

That is all getting too much into one example. Also, since we are talking about KSP like options... A simple, powerful enough TSTO could also be used to launch a simple capsule example into space, which in turn could show capsule related stuff like parachutes. IMHO, the API examples should show how to use the API, not replace add-ons. Installing add-ons is easy enough. Also, I see no demand for a n-th complex Soyuz spacecraft in Orbiter 2016.

If we really want to go retro, what about going 17-19 years back in time in the context of how Orbiters community looked like? We could use more open-source add-ons and people creating open-source distributions based on them - including extending the add-on source code with new features that help in the scenario packs of the distribution or improve the quality of the distribution.
 

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the Orbiter also has a political bias, for example, only the American space program is present in it (I do not consider amateur mods)
Orbiter also contains the Soviet/Russian station Mir and there is also the Russian segment attached to the International Space Station (although the docking ports are biased as the Soyuz docking ports are substituted with the APAS-95 docking ports) in default installation.
 

jedidia

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Well, the default installation doesn't have much historical content anyway you turn it... There's the Atlantis, Mir and the ISS, and... uhm... Yeah, apart from ground installations, I think that's that in terms of historical content.
 

N_Molson

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That is all getting too much into one example. Also, since we are talking about KSP like options... A simple, powerful enough TSTO could also be used to launch a simple capsule example into space

I still expect that updated Gemini from you :ROFLMAO: :cheers:
 

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I enjoy the out-of-the box realism that Orbiter offers vs Kerbal. I also think Orbiter is a more visually stunning experience, especially with the right mods. Kerbal, for me, is only enjoyable with RSS/RO when it's as close to Orbiter in terms of realism as possible. When I discovered RSS, I ended up playing Kerbal 100x more often.
KSP with Real Solar System and Realism Overhaul (and Principia if you want n-body physics) is basically Orbiter but with the ability to make custom rockets without having to make your own mod, and simulation of things like propellant ullage and electrical power. Mods like Kerbalism also simulate life support and radiation.

Realistic Progression 1 (RP-1) provides a career mode with a tech tree, contracts, and goals to work towards, if you want to experience the early Space Age.
 

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KSP with Real Solar System and Realism Overhaul (and Principia if you want n-body physics) is basically Orbiter but with the ability to make custom rockets without having to make your own mod
BUT... Does KSP have a great C++ API for those who do want to make their own mod? And as I said before, what about something NASSP-level?

Oh, and Orbiter is FREE! So, absolutely no product keys, activation, credit cards, etc, etc!
 

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That's the plot. If you want to make KSP a bit serious, you have to mod the game. Heavily. RSS needs a lot of mods, more with RO, more with FAR, more with Principia, again if you want graphics, effects, shaders... If you want to have fun in orbiter, you just need addons. Of course, we (not everyone) would like to have gameplay in Orbiter, because Orbiter is not a game. For myself, one of the biggest issue with Orbiter, is that you don't have a lot to do when on orbit, or in space. I mean, there's no real goal (economic, scientific, role play...). And UCGO's loss with Orbiter 2016 made some damages. Alternative solutions are coming, and we'll soon have a bit of survival gamelay. And i've spent hundreds of hours in Orbiter 2010 with those UMmu, and it was enough. Because Orbiter is so hard to master that a light touch of survival was enough to provide the fun. Orbiter is a simulator, and as such, doesn't need natively any gameplay. But we are big kids, we want to play with this wonderful toy and playground. For free. If someone wants to have fun in some kind of space, go for KSP. I've had tons of good moments with it. If someone wants to learn about real spaceflight, run Orbiter. If someone wants both, play both. One will never become the other. How many sales if KSP becomes as complex as Orbiter ? Who would spend money for Orbiter ? A "game" where you have to open files in notepad to make custom missions ??? We can compare with wargames : the easyer the cheaper. Because complexity isn't good for business.
 

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KSP needs some sane atmospheric modeling to be very good, aside from that it's a pretty nice sci-fi space simulator, it's gotten a lot of people interested in space travel and has probably given Orbiter itself a lot of users. Personally, I think non-historical content is great but I can see the appeal of simulating the Apollo, Mercury and Gemini missions
 

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That's the plot. If you want to make KSP a bit serious, you have to mod the game. Heavily. RSS needs a lot of mods, more with RO, more with FAR, more with Principia, again if you want graphics, effects, shaders... If you want to have fun in orbiter, you just need addons. Of course, we (not everyone) would like to have gameplay in Orbiter, because Orbiter is not a game. For myself, one of the biggest issue with Orbiter, is that you don't have a lot to do when on orbit, or in space. I mean, there's no real goal (economic, scientific, role play...). And UCGO's loss with Orbiter 2016 made some damages. Alternative solutions are coming, and we'll soon have a bit of survival gamelay. And i've spent hundreds of hours in Orbiter 2010 with those UMmu, and it was enough. Because Orbiter is so hard to master that a light touch of survival was enough to provide the fun. Orbiter is a simulator, and as such, doesn't need natively any gameplay. But we are big kids, we want to play with this wonderful toy and playground. For free. If someone wants to have fun in some kind of space, go for KSP. I've had tons of good moments with it. If someone wants to learn about real spaceflight, run Orbiter. If someone wants both, play both. One will never become the other. How many sales if KSP becomes as complex as Orbiter ? Who would spend money for Orbiter ? A "game" where you have to open files in notepad to make custom missions ??? We can compare with wargames : the easyer the cheaper. Because complexity isn't good for business.

Yes and in the way things are now, nothing prevents a .dll plugin from being an economic simulation or something like that. It is more that nobody really tried. Stuff like UGCO proved it is possible. It is quite a lot of work and would require a set of different skills : coding (professional grade), of course modeling/texturing, economics, story writing (because it would involve some kind of context and "lore" to be credible), maths and physics, engineering... A bit too much to be done by a single individual IMHO.
 

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Yes and in the way things are now, nothing prevents a .dll plugin from being an economic simulation or something like that. It is more that nobody really tried.

Oh. I would like to try. But so far, I didn't even get a good cheap Java prototype done, that isn't an insult.

When I have the Orbital Tug done, I wanted to extend on it by including it in a commercial "spacetrucking" world. But right now, too much paid work for getting ahead there.
 

N_Molson

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But right now, too much paid work for getting ahead there.

And that's a limitation we have to accept. KSP development team was, at least at some point, somewhat paid.

That being said, such a project would really benefit from a more appealing of GUI. It doesn't really matter for a flight simulator as it is functional enough, but economic simulation means a lot of time spent managing stuff on dialog boxes and clicking on icons, planet maps, etc...
 

Urwumpe

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And that's a limitation we have to accept. KSP development team was, at least at some point, somewhat paid.

That being said, such a project would really benefit from a more appealing of GUI. It doesn't really matter for a flight simulator as it is functional enough, but economic simulation means a lot of time spent managing stuff on dialog boxes and clicking on icons, planet maps, etc...

Yeah, and doing everything in a MFD will not be fun. ;)

But I also don't want to go too deep into the economics from the user perspective, there should be some toolbox to calculate the costs of a flight, but everything that happens outside the spacecraft should be mostly hidden from the player. All that information you get about the economic world around you would come in short posts in a distributed social delay tolerant network.

But for making this work, I need a simulation model of spacecraft first, that doesn't motivate you to play with 10000x acceleration most of the time. It would kill too much immersion and make the plain captain perspective too boring. Also as old SJW, I want it to be about people, not spacecraft - your crew will be as important as your business contacts or your relations to other captains. Space is big, harsh, and too much competition suicidal.
 

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Well, to be honest, i have a few ideas about what could be done to make orbiter more "game-ish", "only" using tweaked pre-existing addons. It's been a very long time those things are buzzing in my mind, and today i realy think it's doable. But i don't know how to submit it to the community. I can open a thread, of course, and write a BIG post explaining the plot. But i'd rather send it to someone via PM first, for checking, before exposing it to everyone. The idea looks so good to me that i'm afraid not to be able to see the BIG mistake just in front of my nose. But who would i bother with a huge message maybe based on a fundamental mistake ??? I haven't done anything for Orbiter except a few small testings, so i don't feel "legitimate" to do such a thing. Believe it or not, but it's quite impressive to me to write things on this forum sometimes.

To make a little bit of teasing, there's a lore, objectives, rewards, a learning curve, historical context, exploration, and even survival. Nothing less. ;)
 

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Well, I for my part have ended up just creating a scenario with like a hundred stations in it, and a browser application that generates more or less random loads with calculated rates that need to be picked up at station A and delivered to station B by a certain date. No direct orbiter integration. But is a bit of fun every once in a while, especially when paired with a couple of dice and some homebrew PBS RPG mechanics... :) (Well, ok, semi-homebrewn. They're heavily inspired by ironsworn...)
 

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Personally I think the stock package always lacked an "inline" multistage launcher (it would be useful to have the C++ SDK samples for that, as the code can be reused for many similar vehicles). IMHO the R-7 would be a logical choice, but that's my opinion.
How about creating the "Martin-II" rocket? A simple 2-stage rocket, modeled after the Titan-II, named after the boss, and with enough performance to put Carina in a 400Km orbit.
 
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