Science Rapid Interstellar spaceflight, exploration and,colonization thread

T.Neo

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Generally people who make more understated predictions end up right, and generally people who make overstated predictions end up wrong, save for an interesting twist of reality.

Today there are many nuclear powerplants running in the world. Do we have nuclear powered cars and aircraft? No. Today there are ongoing manned space programs and we've flown to the Moon. Do we have weekly transport services to Mare Tranquilitatis? No. Today there are innumerable amazing devices used in daily life. Did the housewife of 2000 do her daily cleaning with a hose? Of course not.

FutureHousewife.jpg


Personally I find people underestimate future advances when they go on about things such as humanoid robots and such; it's a view limited by an old science-fiction trope. We already have robots that do everything from mow lawns to build cars to explore other planets. The problem with these robots is that their functions are limited; they're limited by their specific programming.

Now imagine a generalist AI program- and I'm not talking "artificial person" here, I'm talking an AI software program. We already have AI in a lot of computer applications, but it's mostly limited to one thing or another. Now if you had an AI framework- you might call it a "Strong AI", you could adapt it to various different situations and you could get it to do various different things. Place this in an automaton body- any sort of machinery- and you now have an insanely powerful system.

Why do these robots have to look anything like humans? Of course they don't. They can be anything. They can be intelligent water delivery systems. Or CNC machines. Or lawnmower/vacuum cleaner/drink-server hybrids. Such systems could assist greatly in the operation of motor vehicles, aircraft and watercraft. Or an inbuilt general intelligence program could greatly assist people searching the internet.

Such a system could revolutionise mechanical design work and social planning. Now imagine that such a program could be configured to design at least parts of its future versions; it's already happening, in a sense: compilers can be used to compile the code of their future versions.

And then you have an immensely important technological revolution. A singularity. Not the namby-pamby cyberpunk fairytale singularity that people keep going on about, but a far more sensible and realistic revolution. We had the agricultural revolution, then the industrial revolution, we're having the information revolution (which, despite its massive impact, people have an odd tendancy to ignore), and this would be the intelligence revolution.

Who predicted the internet? Moreover, who predicted that the internet would be as immensely influential as it is now? 2001 gave us HAL 9000, but no internet. I know which one I'd pick, and not because of the former's tendency to kill crews en-route to Jupiter...

There are two problems here though, and the first is that software development doesn't coincide with hardware development. Just because we've got Moore's Law going doesn't mean we could make a really powerful generalist intelligence in 20 years, or 50 years, or maybe even 100 years. And it works both ways; we may in all entirety be able to make a generalist intelligence with the computing technology of today. It might not be a hardware problem at all, but just a "don't exactly know how" problem (such problems are, historically, a grand limitation to technology). Maybe "artificial person" research is stifling the development of actual practical software.

The other problem is that a robot can't really understand a human, unless it effectively is human. And when you are creating sapient entities to do your bidding, you are not only practicing slavery, you are practicing something far worse.

Then again, you're not talking about humans, so our psychology may not aply to whoever they are, but I dare say some psychological principals are almost universal, given that psychology is theorized to be formed along with the body during the evolutionary process.

Exactly; it isn't like human psychology was pulled out of the collective fundament of the universe; it's all set up as a means of survival.

While a sapient alien species may have a psychology that is as alien to us as their appearance, it is almost certain that it will converge on ours in many ways- just as their body plan converges with ours in having features such as legs, eyes, mouthes, support structures, etc. They have to do a lot of things we do (or did) too, it only makes sense that their psychology would be similar to ours.

The best option for studying alien psychology is probably to look at other intelligent organisms on Earth; elephants, cetaceans and certain bird species (we can toss out apes, as well, we're apes and we can only expect our nearest relatives to have similarities to us). Despite all of them being very different from eachother, they have key similarities.

Somehow I feel that a African Grey raised by a robot would turn just as bad as a human raised by a robot. It'd probably turn out better if it were raised by a human(s)...
 
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APDAF

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What I and some friend think is the to start a colony is to take 5,000 of the smartest people and start from there.
The infrastructure proplem could be solved by nanobots and carbon nanotubes.
For the ship have any of you watched Outcasts?
 

jedidia

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The infrastructure proplem could be solved by nanobots and carbon nanotubes.

I don't see nanobots building any large structures soon... as for carbon nanotubes, I don't see why you'd need them. You're not going to build skyscrapers for those 5000 people.
 

fsci123

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What I and some friend think is the to start a colony is to take 5,000 of the smartest people and start from there.
The infrastructure proplem could be solved by nanobots and carbon nanotubes.
For the ship have any of you watched Outcasts?

Well I have to say that we are bot using any fiction... This ship is desighned to be as real as possible...
 

T.Neo

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I don't see nanobots building any large structures soon... as for carbon nanotubes, I don't see why you'd need them. You're not going to build skyscrapers for those 5000 people.

Keep in mind that we don't know how to make long-length nanotubes yet, and they can be unstable if exposed to UV radiation.

They can help you to reduce the mass of your craft, but they might end up being prohibitatively expensive.

To be honest I think people greatly overestimate the speed and ability of nanobots to construct... stuff. If we use biology as a comparison (since biology is really micro, nano scale stuff, and a good deal of nanotechnology could be biologically based or draw heavily from biology), Wikipedia claims [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrocystis_pyrifera"]Macrocystis pyrifera[/ame] is the fastest growing organism known, able to grow at a rate of over half a meter a day. I'm not sure what mass figure that translates into, but it certainly isn't magical.

Also comes the problem of actually building something- a shape- more importantly, a usable shape. Biology manages to grow into all sorts of intricate shapes, but only with the help of genomes that have evolved over hundreds of millions of years. Making a geneome for whatever object you want to build would be hard enough, changing it every time you want to make something new, or make a design change, would be a real headache. And then, biology isn't like mechanical stuff at all. Organisms can be roughly the same, but no two are exactly alike- even if they're genetically identical.

And then for a lot of things, you need proper materials. You can't just splash a bucket of goo on the ground and come back a day later to find a fully functional city; it isn't like normal soil suddenly contains all the this-es thats that you need for certain tasks. And a lot of chemicals don't, for example, dissolve in water and are thus either difficult or impossible to handle (yeah, I know, they can magically be made of diamond and dissolved in silicone gel or whatever, but we have a mind-bogglingly huge ecology of already existing nano-agents and we can definitely expect these little guys to be under at least vaguely similar physics as them.

I forsee nanotechnology in macroscale engineering either being used to construct special bulk materials, or to create parts in something similar to a stereolithography process; neither are infrastructure-less.

A colony effort may have far more advanced and capable infrastructure than we have, but it'll still need infrastructure.

If by Outcasts spacecraft you mean this:
500px-Ranseur-s.png


Maybe that contains 3% realistic spacecraft design in it. But I'm not sure where... :dry:
 

fsci123

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Well because i like scifi i will make this mission into scifi story format...

1. Scientist using an array of space based telescopes discover a planet around a star with an atmosphere composed of Hydrogen, Helium, CO2, Oxygen, Water, and methane... The temperature is similar to earth... The planet orbits Tau Ceti and is 0.8 earth mass...
2. Russian, American, and European specialist devise a spacecraft using current materials... The craft is 0.5 miles long...
3. 10 years after discovery of planet the United States government begins building a vessel designed to dismantle itself with the help of robots...
4. after 8 years of building the ship leaves earth at 0.3c and after a 30 year cruise inserts itself into orbit around such planet... While reconissance satellites map out probable colony areas...
5. While the first craft was in route another four ships 0.1 miles long are built and are designed to dismantled but contain 50 humans... The ships travel at 0.6c
6. When the fourth craft arrives 9 years after the first humans were sent it brings vehicles like police cars, buses, and tanks... And materials to build other rockets...
7. The first two craft is built and arrives at the colony...

THE END
 

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Dambuster

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Your call on what to take, but I'd suggest leaving out the tanks, since they will probably literally be only useful as immobile paperweights!
 

fsci123

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Your call on what to take, but I'd suggest leaving out the tanks, since they will probably literally be only useful as immobile paperweights!

Humans dont live in peace now and will never live in peace in the future... Sometimes you need to scare the s:censored:t out of people... Plus if this planet has life on it the low gravity may allow creatures to be super huge... And there maybe a silent "natural" colony made by an alien civilization on the opposite side of the planet...
 
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Ghostrider

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Leave out the tanks: they're a maintenance nightmare, they drink fuel like there's no tomorrow, they're terribly terrain-picky and you need to carry them around on rail cars because moving them about on their own power invalidates the warranty.
 

fsci123

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Leave out the tanks: they're a maintenance nightmare, they drink fuel like there's no tomorrow, they're terribly terrain-picky and you need to carry them around on rail cars because moving them about on their own power invalidates the warranty.

Uh im assuming this is a hundred years from now so... Combat tech may improve...
 

T.Neo

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Tanks? What? Why do you need tanks? Do you know how heavy tanks and their supporting equipment is? They'd be horribly overkill, horribly useless, and horribly heavy. You might as well carry 400 tons of cola, it'd be more useful.

I have to vote for the powered armor though, either that or a bunch of forklifts. Something that can actually be used to practically do something:
mech.jpg


But not to throw pigs at people, of course. In an extrasolar colony, pigs would be far too valuable for that.

1. Scientist using an array of space based telescopes discover a planet around a star with an atmosphere composed of Hydrogen, Helium, CO2, Oxygen, Water, and methane... The temperature is similar to earth... The planet orbits Tau Ceti and is 0.8 earth mass...

Tau Ceti has a thick dust ring (essentially, it's got a very big asteroid belt), which means that any prospective planet would be frequently impacted by asteroids. It might not be a wasteland though; on human scales, a major impact every 5 million years isn't that much, and we have the ability to deflect asteroids as well, which could help.

But such impact frequency could probably stifle the evolution of advanced life...

2. Russian, American, and European specialist devise a spacecraft using current materials... The craft is 0.5 miles long...

Why is it 0.804673609 kilometers long?

3. 10 years after discovery of planet the United States government begins building a vessel designed to dismantle itself with the help of robots...

How is being dissasembled by robots helpful in any way to the ship's mission?

4. after 8 years of building the ship leaves earth at 0.3c and after a 30 year cruise inserts itself into orbit around such planet... While reconissance satellites map out probable colony areas...

Does the ship have any human backup crew, or are we just supposed to trust it and hope that it works flawlessly after 30 years in space?

5. While the first craft was in route another four ships 0.1 miles long are built and are designed to dismantled but contain 50 humans... The ships travel at 0.6c

If they're faster, why are they smaller, at 0.160934722 kilometers? If anything they should have larger propellant tanks, larger engines, etc...

6. When the fourth craft arrives 9 years after the first humans were sent it brings vehicles like police cars, buses, and tanks... And materials to build other rockets...

Never mind the... tanks :)facepalm:), but why buses and police cars? Isn't practical infrastructure more... practical? Like construction devices, some raw materials, and components for startup factories?

And other rockets? To go where? I'm afraid you haven't made your plan all that clear.

T.Neo I ment this.

No, I haven't seen Outcasts, and I couldn't get a good enough look at their spacecraft to tell if it had a shred of plausibility in it.

Nevertheless, that's an awefully alien planet they've got there. I've been there, actually. It's called the Cape Peninsula. :facepalm:
 
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Ghostrider

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Nevertheless, that's an awefully alien planet they've got there. I've been there, actually. It's called the Cape Peninsula.

Really? Is it inhabitable? Can we safely land a crew there and bring them back? Maybe it's a better target for a manned expedition than Burbank.
 

fsci123

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Factories are made from pieces of the first vessel... So are habitats communication devices and roads an farms... When humans arrive they can have a comfortable habitat to call home while they build more complex structures... I chose buses because it will be pretty bad if we go to a planet and start pumping pollutants into the atmospere by using vans designed to hold 8 people and only holding 1... Police cars to keep order... Rockets to launch sattelites for communication and weather forcasting... I personally don't believe people will be using mechs for battle anytime soon...
 

Dambuster

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Eh, screw battle. There's enough of it on this planet already, no need to go exporting it to other ones as well.
 

fsci123

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Eh, screw battle. There's enough of it on this planet already, no need to go exporting it to other ones as well.

People were fighting in Europe and Asia before 1490 they were fighting after 1492 and America is fighting today... Now what makes you think that humans will go to another planet singing in drum circles and hugging trees? If we can't get weapons we make weapons out our teeth and sticks...
 

Dambuster

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People were fighting in Europe and Asia before 1490 they were fighting after 1492 and America is fighting today... Now what makes you think that humans will go to another planet singing in drum circles and hugging trees? If we can't get weapons we make weapons out our teeth and sticks...

I agree, fighting has been going on since time immemorial, but it is still fundamentally a bad thing. IMO, the world *could* exist and work very well with far fewer (or no) wars, but it would require some major changes, one of which would be fundamentally reworking the way people approach disputes between different groups (be it countries, tribes, cities, villages...whatever). One of the ways you could minimise the # of wars would be by starting again somewhere, and instead of providing weapons to solve disputes, provide some sort of framework for people to solve them peacefully. Certainly it won't always work out so well, but I would expect that generally a bit of foresight could avert many problems before they become problems that require violence on a large scale to resolve them. So instead of exporting tanks and weapons, why not export some sort of framework to solve disputes without weapons.

Slap me for being an idealist if you want, but I would point out that this entire scenario is currently idealistic anyway :tiphat:
 

Wishbone

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This IS funny. I've been listening to a Woodstock marathon all day long on the radio (with some breaks for doing lectures), and it IS possible to sing in drum circles. Right now there's Hendrix singin'.
 
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