Science Rapid Interstellar spaceflight, exploration and,colonization thread

Urwumpe

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Whats so funny...

Funny? You have actually not even the slightest clue, but think that what once crossed your mind must be the truth, regardless how illogical it is. Something like some basic research, like at least reading about stuff on Wikipedia for a start, does not even happen, which then explains why you post such fiction here.
 

jedidia

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Well i have no equations i just know in the back of my mind that exoplanets may look like this...

Look at jupiter and saturn and neptune and uranus... The last two being closest to being a water world have a hydrogen-helium atmosphere with ammonia clouds... What would hydrogen, helium, and CO2 combine to form... You can leave helium out because you know... CO2 will combine to form water and formaldehyde but formaldehyde is less stable than CO2 and H2O so it is unlikely...

Someone recently died in Disneyland when the roller-coaster hit 2Gs... So its just an assumption...


Sorry, you're doing it wrong. Totally, completely, utterly wrong. I can't even start to describe how wrong you're doing it. I hope you don't feel insulted, I don't mean it in an offensive way. I just want and have to tell you that things don't work that way. At all. I wish there was a more friendly way to say this, but none comes to mind...
I'd suggest to study a bit of chemistry, planetary formation theory, and a planetary lexicon or two before going over to wild speculation. You know, just to have some baselines to go on.
 

fsci123

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Just to clear up some mess I have to say that I did take chemistry and received 87%...
I also took biology which I passed with an 80%...
If my theories are so utterly wrong then tell some current theories so
I can get a feel for what is right...
 

Urwumpe

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Just to clear up some mess I have to say that I did take chemistry and received 87%...
I also took biology which I passed with an 80%...
If my theories are so utterly wrong then tell some current theories so
I can get a feel for what is right...

Like often said, your claims about your grades tell us very little about how good you really are, but rather let your classes appear in a very bad light, when you just guess something out of the blue, present it as fact - and then also are wrong about it.

I passed mathematics in my final exam at high school with approximately 92-95%, that still doesn't mean that I know now all about mathematics and don't need to learn anything new about it. It especially doesn't mean that I am infallible. (Also the real fun about mathematics wasn't taught in high school. Just like exobiology, exogeology and planetary formation theory are sure as hell not part of your curriculum)

Your theories have already been debunked in detail by others earlier in the thread, kudos to their patience, so read it yourself.
 
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jedidia

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If my theories are so utterly wrong then tell some current theories so

Ever thought about using google? :thumbup:

Just to clear up some mess I have to say that I did take chemistry and received 87%...

Then try to remember those classes and then ask yourself how on earth H and CO2 are supposed to form water by a natural process, other than having plantlife to take the CO2 apart and release oxygen.
 
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fsci123

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Ever thought about using google? :thumbup:



Then try to remember those classes and then ask yourself how on earth H and CO2 are supposed to form water by a natural process, other than having plantlife to take the CO2 apart and release oxygen.

Number one you said earth:facepalm:... Number two i dont expect it to happen... If you want to ask me and criticize me ask the guy who said that hydrogen will combine with CO2...
 

T.Neo

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Maybe you mean the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosch_reaction"]Bosch reaction[/ame], that combines hydrogen and CO2 at around 600 degrees with an iron catalyst, producing graphite, water, and heat?

I don't really think that is a candidate for being any sort of natural process.
 
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fsci123

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Ok so we all wont get banned i am forced to intervene and put this thread on topic

Ok i have been working on a new ISV... I felt horrible when i realized the fuel tank was to small so i decided to make one large fuel tank with an inflatable torus surrounding it... Is this a good ideal or is it monkey garbage...

attachment.php
 
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jedidia

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If you mean the general design idea, it might make more sense to have the fuel tank surrounding the hab, since it's a free radiaton shield.
 

T.Neo

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If you mean the general design idea, it might make more sense to have the fuel tank surrounding the hab, since it's a free radiaton shield.

That would have several issues though. For one, the hab is hot, and the propellant will have to be kept cold; immerse the hab in the propellant and you could get problems heating the propellant.

Maybe the best solution to the propellant tank problem would be to build then as geodesic spheres.
 

fsci123

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If you mean the general design idea, it might make more sense to have the fuel tank surrounding the hab, since it's a free radiaton shield.


I have a feeling that people inside will freeze to death... Plus while on cruise mode the craft can spin to create artificial gravity...


That would have several issues though. For one, the hab is hot, and the propellant will have to be kept cold; immerse the hab in the propellant and you could get problems heating the propellant.

Maybe the best solution to the propellant tank problem would be to build then as geodesic spheres.


The torus is separated from the tank by a few feet...


attachment.php
 
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T.Neo

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I have a feeling that people inside will freeze to death... Plus while on cruise mode the craft can spin to create artificial gravity...

Freezing to death isn't the problem, you fix that with heaters just as you'd normally do. The problem comes when those heaters heat up the propellant, that you don't want to heat up...

The torus is separated from the tank by a few feet...

The torus is for habitation? Oh.

Well, your ratios are most probably off. There's way too much hab volume there compared to propellant tank volume. Remember that you will require multiple times the mass of the structure and payload, in propellant. Did you do any calculations based off of masses and densities?

Also, it would be a pretty good idea to place the tank between the engine and the crew... for better protection.
 

fsci123

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Freezing to death isn't the problem, you fix that with heaters just as you'd normally do. The problem comes when those heaters heat up the propellant, that you don't want to heat up...



The torus is for habitation? Oh.

Well, your ratios are most probably off. There's way too much hab volume there compared to propellant tank volume. Remember that you will require multiple times the mass of the structure and payload, in propellant. Did you do any calculations based off of masses and densities?

Also, it would be a pretty good idea to place the tank between the engine and the crew... for better protection.


Yeah i know... I am working on the ratio... The tank is 1/4km wide:facepalm:... So i seriously have to work on the inflatable hab size... But the radiation is probably not a problem because it will only be on for a little while... Maybe like a few days or a month i personally dont know last time i checked He3-D fusion dosnt produce that much radiation...

Im actually banned from using the computer so it may take awhile before i can get back on 3ds max..
 

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I think that depends on whether the planet can retain hydrogen; it depends on mass and temperature.

I'm not sure if hydrogen would accumulate at the top of the atmosphere; I've heard that the very highest parts of Earth's atmosphere contain helium, I haven't read anything about hydrogen mixing in with other gases lower in the atmosphere.

I sort of took the first part for granted, since after all, since planets like Jupiter which are much farther from the sun (less heat and solar radiation by inverse-square) and more massive are rich in hydrogen.

To be fair, I haven't read about hydrogen mixing with gasses lower in the atmosphere either, except I do know that hydrogen reacts with stuff in general around the ground in the planetary formation process, locked away on Earth in minerals and water; that I do know. After all, planetary formation is rather violent and chaotic (meteor/comet impact, etc.), so hydrogen most likely sees the ground one way or another.

fsci123 said:
Someone recently died in Disneyland when the roller-coaster hit 2Gs... So its just an assumption...

This sort of thing happens a lot. It's more that those sort of G's will bring out heart problems if they already exist. If this applied to everyone, or even a significant fraction, I may not have survived one of my many expeditions to Mars on Mission Space :rolleyes:

Anyways, there's a table on Atomic Rocket that lists effects of different G's on humans. I won't link it because I think you need to look through that site anyways... (and it's a good excuse to be lazy and not find it myself xD )

EDIT:

On speculation about hypothetical biochemistries:
Eagle1Division, I've looked at alternate biochemistries as well. And the trend I keep saying is people saying "Ooh, this sort of chemical environment could exist here, this solvent or this chemical or whatever could do X, X and X". And then other people come along and point out "But this chemical environment has Y problems, and this solvent or whatever has A, B and C disadvantages".

I'm not asking for an end-all design for an alternate biochemistry. I'm asking for a single design. Any design. Any vague description of how such a biochemistry could work, along with in-depth simulations or studies. I haven't seen that anywhere yet. It's all just stuff like "ooh, but this could happen with this and this, you could have a halogen-based world, or a planet at 200 degrees C", or whatever. There's no actual detailing behind how these organisms could work.

And if you look at the alternative, you'll see that it's essential to come up with models for how such life could work, because if we don't, we're basically just assuming stuff. I'm not saying that "X theoretical biochemistry" would predominate on a planet like Titan, or even whether it would exist at all, but if we don't run studies, an actual study that deals with the actual chemicals interacting in the actual environment, we can't assume that something of the vague flavour would work, or how it would work.

I'm not even saying that alternate biochemistries are impossible. I am saying that they likely face several challenges and problems in the face of becoming complex or advanced life. From what we know about chemistry- it is about chemistry, that there are several reasons why some of the "alternate" biochemistries described would face disadvantages.

On life-speed at cryogenic temperatures:
What I was trying to say is that at lower temperatures, molecules move at reduced velocities. I am not talking about the energy that reactions yield at all. I'm not talking about rust, or rocket engines. I'm talking about how fast stuff can interact at the micro and nano-scale. DNA replication, for example, or its equivalent. The rate at which that sort of stuff happens dictates a whole lot of other things.

On movement of plants and animals:
Plants don't move fast because they don't need to. Yes, heterotrophs move faster because they survive on energy that has already been concentrated. But they also have to go out and get that energy; they don't sit around in the sun all day effectively getting it for free.

You don't have to be a carnivorous plant to have rapid motion. And some sessile animals (in this case, heterotrophs) movequite quickly barnacles feeding (barnacles are, believe it or not, crusteceans).

It isn't an argument for fast moving supercold biochemistries. It's just an argument about how different organisms adapt differently to different lifestyles. It doesn't have anything to do with the results of reduced interaction rate.

The difference between autotrophs and heterotrophs is quite obvious on land, but in the oceans it's different; a lot of the time, niches held by "plants" are in fact held by animals, which may or may not be in symbiosis with autotrophs. The uneducated person might regard a sponge or a coral or an anemone for a plant, but they're not.

There are plenty of organisms in the ocean that are sessile or slow moving and do quite well as heterotrophs.

Here's a pretty interesting video of a landscape of slow-moving organisms, in quite an alien environment (warning; gets gory at ~1:22).
Life - Timelapse of swarming monster worms and sea stars

Reef Aquarium Time lapse of Star polyps
There could be various reasons why life could evolve in such a way. It could have to do with senses. Or movement organs. Or nervous system evolution. Or extinction rates. Or just plain luck. Just because you're a heterotroph doesn't mean you have to move at speed X or speed Y. Heck, on an alien planet one need not assume that something like a heterotroph or an autotroph would even be that distinct. On Earth they're quite distinct on land, but somewhat less so in the water- there it's common to find organisms in symbiotic relationships. And lichens, after all, are symbiotic organisms-

Saying that something can't exist without problems on even a small amount of evidence is one thing, saying something can exist and act in a certain way without adequately illustrating possibilities is another.

Wow. I get the feeling your field is somehow tied to this? That's quiet a lot of info. Those videos were quiet fascinating, btw. I pose no counterargument that I haven't already (which are pretty well defeated). That's quiet compelling about DNA processes and such happening slower at colder temperatures.
I can say with absolutely no knowledge, but perhaps the viscosity of the liquid is also a factor? Makes sense, but nature has a nasty habit of not doing that. (Which is really what keeps us interested, anyways, :) )

fsci123 said:
Just to clear up some mess I have to say that I did take chemistry and received 87%...
I also took biology which I passed with an 80%...
If my theories are so utterly wrong then tell some current theories so
I can get a feel for what is right...

Really? Grade-bragging? I don't doubt you're interested and technically minded, and I don't question your intellect or anything of that sort; but:
#1. I got a 117 in a dual-enrollment psychology class. I am, however, by no means an expert in psychology. I just did well in the class. (My compliments to Mr. Bennet :cheers: A little eccentric like most psychology professors, but he was right in a lot of ways that're very rare.)
#2. I'm emberresed to admit I'm only in high school. High school courses are not just basic, they are basic, to the basic power, and dumbed down. College is where things get interesting, and only in the later years at that.
#3. Education isn't directly proportional to knowledge. I sometimes get the feeling the education system is so choked up with busywork that I'm taking 4 years in highschool to learn what I could've learned on my own in one. Heck, minus the busywork I could probably do it in 6 to 9 months. Point in case: The vast majority (I seriously don't hesitate to say 75%) of what I know (Technical information, even) comes from places other than school. In fact, just looking at my own post I'd up that to 90%. I don't think anything I've ever mentioned on these forums comes from anything I've learned at school. I really believe in terms of pure education I'd be best off doing it on my own, since most of it comes from my own reading. Can't wait for college...
Aristotle said:
"Those who know, do. Those that understand, teach."
The problem comes along when those who don't understand are paid to teach. Don't even get me started on the ones that don't try...

And just in general; intuition is never a good way to go unless you really understand something first. Unless you're really familiar and well-rehersed in a particular field of study, I'd never trust my intuition. Best example is Orbital Mechanics. Or Particle Physics. First entering the study, intuition will guide you astray. But once you've had a lot of experience and learning, then intuition becomes increasingly more reliable and useful. It is my opinion that people like Albert Einstein and Steven Hawking revolutionize a field because they can actually grasp all the concepts, and once they've learned a field, are able to navigate something as complicated as space itself using intuition. Once the intuition is there, they mathematically see if they're right. And whaddaya know? They were.
(Undoubtly only as much as Isaac Newton was right; to an extent.)

(Prime example: It takes a long time before you get "a feel", aka intuitively understand orbital mechanics, as any orbinaut knows.)
 
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T.Neo

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To be fair, I haven't read about hydrogen mixing with gasses lower in the atmosphere either, except I do know that hydrogen reacts with stuff in general around the ground in the planetary formation process, locked away on Earth in minerals and water; that I do know. After all, planetary formation is rather violent and chaotic (meteor/comet impact, etc.), so hydrogen most likely sees the ground one way or another.

I dunno; I'm skeptical that all the hydrogen could get locked away like that, that reactive chemicals would be depleted or the environment would settle on a steady chemical state or something like that.

This sort of thing happens a lot. It's more that those sort of G's will bring out heart problems if they already exist. If this applied to everyone, or even a significant fraction, I may not have survived one of my many expeditions to Mars on Mission Space

Anyways, there's a table on Atomic Rocket that lists effects of different G's on humans. I won't link it because I think you need to look through that site anyways... (and it's a good excuse to be lazy and not find it myself xD )

Acute Gs are different from chronic Gs though. The sort of Gs you get in a centrifuge or during a rocket launch have a duration of several minutes; here people are being subjected to such Gs for their entire lives. People may adapt, but I'll still waiting for someone to sew some lead shot into a suit that weighs around as much as they do, and live in it for a month...

I wonder what would happen. :blink:

Wow. I get the feeling your field is somehow tied to this? That's quiet a lot of info. Those videos were quiet fascinating, btw. I pose no counterargument that I haven't already (which are pretty well defeated). That's quiet compelling about DNA processes and such happening slower at colder temperatures.
I can say with absolutely no knowledge, but perhaps the viscosity of the liquid is also a factor? Makes sense, but nature has a nasty habit of not doing that. (Which is really what keeps us interested, anyways, )

Eh... depends on how you define "field". I'm an unashamed armchair biologist, with a particular interest in xenobiogical possibilities.

For alternate biochemistries occuring at cryogenic temperatures, the viscosity of the solvent in question (be it methane, ethane, a mix of the two, etc) is the main issue, rather than the temperature itself. I don't know what sort of differences differing viscosities could make.

Sometimes nature makes perfect sense, sometimes it doesn't seem to make sense at all. Usually it always makes sense- to itself, even if it doesn't make sense to an observer at first.

#3. Education isn't directly proportional to knowledge. I sometimes get the feeling the education system is so choked up with busywork that I'm taking 4 years in highschool to learn what I could've learned on my own in one. Heck, minus the busywork I could probably do it in 6 to 9 months. Point in case: The vast majority (I seriously don't hesitate to say 75%) of what I know (Technical information, even) comes from places other than school. In fact, just looking at my own post I'd up that to 90%. I don't think anything I've ever mentioned on these forums comes from anything I've learned at school. I really believe in terms of pure education I'd be best off doing it on my own, since most of it comes from my own reading. Can't wait for college...

I agree; my complaints with school are pretty much the same, too much "busywork" and too little actual learning.

Maybe it works more for some than others, but forcing people to conform to something they're not optimal at isn't at all good.
 

fsci123

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I have a feeling that if one was to put lead in there suit they would become retarded...
 

T.Neo

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Have a look at [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning"]lead poisoning[/ame]. Lead exposure can be negative in several ways but I doubt it would "make people retarded".

Use bismuth pellets, or tungsten pellets, or even steel pellets. Whatever. As long as it is dense and can be fitted into a garment designed to simulate an increase in weight to the wearer. It doesn't have to be lead.
 

fsci123

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Just for fun i wanted to say... What if a human colony ship arrived a gliese 581 or some other planet and upon landing of probes a "natural" colony attacks human settlers... What would they do...

http://www.twitvid.com/X13K0
Battle:LA
:cheers:

Kinda reminds of my book except 200years in the future and on another planet
 

jedidia

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I have a feeling that people inside will freeze to death...

No. You'll be hard pressed getting rid of all the heat so many people are producing anyways, so if submersion in the tanks has any problems, is as T.Neo said that you have trouble to get rid of it. Although I was naivly assuming that using the tanks as a heat sink might actually be desirable, but...

I assume we're still using hydrogen for fuel, so the tanks indeed have to be cryogenic. That's a problem that never occured to me.

That's some pretty detailed mesh-work for a concept that doesn't even have its numbers fixed yet, by the way. You might end up doing much of that again.
 
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