RCS Best practice Apollo

sw34669

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yes, i can see the LM: and CSM: i guess my issue was that I hadn't done the first when the second came up. If 2 are outstading at the same time, will running the uplink in both LM and CSM catch them both? Now that I know i can leave longer checklists and flip craft I can buy some more time.

can i just set 623 to 10000 to disbale the sband yaw ?

It's strange about the leak let me use the exact scenario i sent you.

Here's the issue, since getting past seperation, i'm not showing the pressure loss anymore on that save. The screenshots from a days ago show the CM O2 usage rose to very high shorty after loading that scenario. Also, the O2 and H2O tanks in the LM were empty. Since going through seperation last night when I re-load that scenario 1) I dont get the runaway pressure issue and 2) the LM O2 and H20 tanks are both full. The two are related i'm sure. I used the scenario I attached above to generate those screenshots of the CSM O2 Flow from that scenario. What other state of something in the underlying config files could explain the same scanrio file showing both the "leak" and the O2 and H20 tanks flipping from empty to full.
 

sw34669

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All the saves I have before this issue triggered would always show LM O2 and H20 at zero. Now after getting through seperation any save i load had those 2 items at 100%.

Here is a save attached from a short time after the prev save with the issue running (issue started very soon after EGRESS set i LM).

Using timewarp in the CSM the high rate does not go away until you close the CSM hatch and seal it
Switching to the LM now shows O2 and H2O at 100% i have screenshots of this scenario file where it showed 0% for both
If you put both in cabin in LM and speed forward the Co2 rises as cabin fan is not on and the cabin pressure reduces (not as fast as it did before with this save as the O2 and H2O were 0)
If you switch the A from Egress to cabin and push the lever in this stops the loss

So I think there's 2 issues here
1) A bunch of saves I have with associated screenshots all showed O2 and H2O in the LM at zero and they dont now
2) The trigger point for the leak was the LM checklist where egress was set

The second scenario current state 1 is now the only save I have that shows O2 an H2O at zero. There must be some state somewhere outside the scenario files causing this as i've always had those two tanks at zero on the LM across all the saves untl last night when i finally got undocked.

Hope these help to track down the issue
 

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sw34669

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Looking at current state 8 the issue seem to be, if you have a and b closed as normal positions for that point in the flight plan, and both in the LM cabin (i.e. turn a from EGRESS to closed and push the cabin/egress handle in on scenario 8) it stops the external loss of pressure ..... but .... large Co2 build up in LM cabin and they go critical and die eventually. Could the EGRESS mode be a hack for Co2 build up.

I also still can't explain why my O2 and H2O in the LM are at zero in some saves and not others. My current save 0001 is my latest save and they are both at zero.
 

indy91

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The O2/H2O quantity gauge depends on the O2/H2 Qty Mon switch. If that is in C/W Reset then it will show as empty. If it is in DES it shows the descent O2 and H2O tanks, ascent 1 and 2 show the tanks in the ascent stage.

The CO2 is measured in the suit loop. I think the suit loop can have a CO2 buildup, so you should definitely have good circulation, then it will go down. Make sure the suit isol valves are in suit flow.

Which one of the scenarios is the best to figure out this leak?
 

sw34669

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scenario 8 has the leak active and both LM and CSM doors open
It started at the set LM circ A to EGRESS on the checklist but it's not so much of a smoking gun bug wise as that's what egress is for (i thought), just perhaps not at that part of the checklist. There's part of the LM shutdown that uses egress for some mins to blow any moisture out.
if you close off the airlock fully the CSM pressure increases and becomes stable and the LM loses some pressure
Putting LM to Closed or Cabin shuts it off
Yesterday when I was playing around with one of the other saves I got the LM cabin down to 3psi as i'd closed the CSM airlock fully
 

sw34669

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The O2/H2O quantity gauge depends on the O2/H2 Qty Mon switch. If that is in C/W Reset then it will show as empty. If it is in DES it shows the descent O2 and H2O tanks, ascent 1 and 2 show the tanks in the ascent stage.
Doh! Just got to that section of the LM manual managed to miss that large rotary switch.
The CO2 is measured in the suit loop. I think the suit loop can have a CO2 buildup, so you should definitely have good circulation, then it will go down. Make sure the suit isol valves are in suit flow.

Which one of the scenarios is the best to figure out this leak?
 

indy91

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scenario 8 has the leak active and both LM and CSM doors open

This seems a bit contradictory. How can you detect a leak if both hatches are still open. And there is a leak check for the tunnel coming up which vents a bit of the atmosphere in the tunnel. Definitely not good to do that procedure with the hatches open...

I have tried your scenario 0008 and can still not find any hint of a leak. Maybe post a scenario where the leak is in progress and I don't have to do any switch changes or close any hatches for me to replicate it.

One thing about the egress configuration, it does maintain a lower pressure in the suit loop. So I guess it is possible to have a configuration where the pressure in the cabin is fairly low, the suit loop is not helping out because of egress mode and the only O2 coming in is from the CSM side. But that still wouldn't be a leak. The only outside connections that could leak to outside the cabins is the hatches and the tunnel vent valve. Other than that you really can't loose pressure.
 

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you asked me for the scenario to track the leak down from. scenario 8 was 60 seconds after the pressure alarm went off in the CSM after the LM checklist opened the EGRESS valve on circ A. Above i gave a description of the steps i then took with this scenario to narrow down the leak to see which cabin it was coming from (close airlocks, after 5 mins CSM pressure stable and LM still losing pressure), leave it running for a while and LM pressure drops < 5, close EGRESS valve and push Cabin/Egress handle in cabin pressure loss gone, open airlock back up after dP resolves and loss is gone

The leak is in progress in scenario 8, if you're not seeing it at your end we must be on different builds.

Here is the paused screenshot after I open scenario 8 You can see the alarm and the LB/Hr meter pegged up. If you do nothing but increase time it's eating O2 (through the open hatch and out the Egress valve in circ A that was opened by the LM checklist a little earlier. If left open, Air flows from the CSM to the LM at a high rate.

Do you not see the alarm when you open this scenario. I'm on the last weeks drop of the NASSP code

If I let the scenario 8 run on for an hour after loading it and doing nothing ..... O2 usage in CSM drops 5%.

1612129159108.png
 

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sw34669

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if i load scenario 8, switch to the LM, put both circ valves to cabin and push the handle in and ru forward to the same time that saw a 5% drop in o2, quickly, the flow rate reduces and we still have the same O2 roughly. Same as above, just left the airlocks open as per checklists at that point.

1612130328166.png
 

sw34669

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just to confirm , with scenario 8 loaded you should see the alarm etc with no switch changes. I'm currently on NASSP-V8.0-Beta-Orbiter2016-1600

My first screenshot of scenario 8 was just after loading it, on my system and hitting F1 to go into the CSM panel, nothing else.
 

indy91

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Yes I am getting the alarm in the CSM and the high O2 flow there, I've seen that before (and worried about it haha). So when you switch pressure regulator A to egress in the LM then it will maintain a lower pressure in the suit circuit. The pressure regulators are regulating the O2 flow from the O2 tanks (there is a manifold just before those regulators, the next valves up in line are the descent, ascent 1 and ascent 2 O2 rotational switches). In cabin mode the regulators will try to maintain 4.8 psia, in egress mode only 3.8. So I guess when you switched to egress it stopped adding O2 to the suit circuit and the suit circuit was still adding O2 to the cabin via the suit circuit relief valve being in auto. So that essentially stopped the LM ECS from maintaining pressure in the LM cabin, at least above 3.8 psia.

I don't know how relevant it is, but the cabin still has a high temperature (something I also get). But because the ECS is active now, including the glycol loop, it should be cooling down quite quickly. And that will also lower the pressure of course. I don't know if it's a relevant amount though.

And regarding the hatches, you also have to close the valves in them to close them completely. For the CSM hatch that is the pressure equalization valve which has to be in close, on the LM side the hatch has a valve with the positions Open, Auto, Close. Auto and close will both work to not let anything through the hatch. Maybe you had it in open still and ran the tunnel leak checks later on?

Maybe you were just in a configuration where the LM wasn't maintaining its pressure at the same level as the CSM would, because of egress mode. With hatches or valves in hatches still open the CSM had to supply the pressure. And LM cabin was rapidly cooling and loosing temperature? Maybe. I still don't think you lost any O2 to space from a leak. O2 flow high in the CSM while the CSM and LM cabins are open to each other is something I have seen before. Just make sure all the hatches are completely shut and I'm sure it will be fine.
 

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yes thanks, understood, this actualy doesnt last long once the hatches are closed. I understand there are a good number of pressure vessels interconnected and am good with the operation of the hatches and their seals / control levers. I managed to eventually get undocked the other night and mostly catch up on all the pads and mcc uplinks to either side.

The rnd radar was my next challenge no matter how much i pointed it in the direction of the CSM and moved the radar around i couldnt get the no signal to go out. The cb's are all in and the switches in the correct position. Not sure if i've missed something on the CSM that needs to be enabled.
 

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another quick question sorry im cross infecting this thread witha sound question.

sound ...... I had all the lauch mp3 files play but I havn't heard any of the others in C:\Orbiter Beta\Sound\ProjectApollo\Apollo11 at all. i.e. the approach and then landing. I watched one of your vids (indy) on youtube and when landing, you got the landing mp3, i dont.

I've made sure there's no vessel config file for orbiter sound, so, it should be looking at the correct directory. The csmsound and sound.csv files are there.

I get the MCC yellow text showing the landing but, unlike your video, the approach or landing sound doesnt play.

thx
 

indy91

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I think we broke the landing audio by removing some outdated code. The audio files are still there and we plan to use them again at some point, but right now they are not being played.
 

sw34669

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ah ok just as long as i've not got something broken.
I think it's way more important the work that's gone into the sheer depth of the detail.

Been looking at the abort guidance system (BUGS :)) after being unable not to push the big red botton maked ABORT STAGE

The save I was working from (Your shortly before PDI) only has 94.07 (50%) in the ascent tank and runs out of gas well before orbital insertion. Where can I find the correct gas/% level for that ascent tank ? If I load my current save up that's just after DOI, I have 119.21 in LM tank 3 (ascent) ?

Trying to get my head around the different modes of abort and have understood the get to alt/vel for later adjustment to intersect CSM orbit. So .... can the AGS, with the help of the rnd radar, have a good first attempt at getting close ? What are the high level things off the top of your head that need to be configured to accomplish this on the LM and what needs to be turned on, target wise on the CSM (visual target and radar ?). I've got a good feel of the radar now so any short guidance would be perfect .

Thanks and have a good week.
 

indy91

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What save is that? "Apollo 11 - 12 - Before PDI T+102h28min.scn" from the Mission Scenarios? The ascent stage propellant tank isn't actually defined yet before staging, and after staging it has 2376.10 kg (= 100%) of propellant, so maybe you are looking at the wrong tank for that mass value.

The first thing to know about AGS and the RR is that they don't have an interface. The AGS can only know about RR data from the LGC with V47 or by manually entering data. If you really want to try an AGS only rendezvous, which should definitely be possible, then I suggest reading this document: https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/Mission_G_Rendezvous.pdf It has full AGS only procedures starting on PDF page 50. The procedure is for an ascent from the surface and not an abort, which has a different trajectory. So at least the initial part of the procedure will be different. And be warned, AGS only rendezvous is definitely more difficult than PGNS, so I wouldn't try to do this if you haven't already done a few aborts/rendezvous using the PGNS.
 

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ok great. One other quick thing. Just after P64 kicks in final stage of approach, like your video, I wait and click PRO at ~3500 feet but I cant re-designate landing site using <home> <end> <,> and <.>
Left to get on with it full auto, it always lands 9999 feet down range to the right of those 2 large craters. I'm usng the built in checlist to prep for +8 +9
thx again
 

sw34669

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also checked the prop level in the just before lunar liftoff scenario and this also shows not enough in the tank
not sure what you mean about staging
the just beore lunary liftoff (which is 9 mins to liftoff ) has the following tanks

also where should this be in the checklist (just before lunar liftoff) as, like the 'before PDI scenario', the liftoff default is in the middle of some earlier checklists. Would it be an idea to move all the broken ones at the moment into broken scenarios so people know? The problem is, having a broken scenarios folder will make people assume the ones not in there are ok and burn time on worknig out what they are doing wrong (when we're all low hours).
1612381464606.png


1612381491852.png


1612381520319.png
 
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indy91

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That's the DPS tank and the two RCS tanks. What I mean by staging is that the APS propellant (and APS engine) don't exist in the simulation before ascent and descent stage are being separated. They are created at staging. That's a bit of a remnant of the past, as the LM control electronics now would prevent firing the APS before staging. But for now that's how it works.

I cant re-designate landing site using <home> <end> <,> and <.>

I think that is outdated information. You re-designate with the attitude controller, like in the real LM, in the pitch and roll axes. So either Numpad 2 and 8, and 4 and 6 or joystick. Here is a thread with the most recent keyboard commands: https://www.orbiter-forum.com/threads/nassp-keyboard-commands.36693/
 

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thanks and last one for the night : http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=136.675
after initial takeoff I dnot get the change to P32
For coelliptic rendezvous, after cutoff, P32 will start and the LM will orient with windows (and rendezvous radar) facing the CSM. Noun 39 will display the time to CSI burn, which occurs at apoapsis and will circularize the LM orbit. The burn is done using RCS, so 120 seconds before the burn P41 will start, orient the LM, and do the burn.
 
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