Project Soyuz 7k.dll

[diogom]

After talking with 4throck, we agreed on moving on to making a .dll out of the addon. I approached N_Molson, for his excelent work in addons, and he kindly accepted to help out, once again, thanks a lot!
So, any updates on the development will be posted here. Since the Sigma Project is going at the same time (and a priority IMO), updates won't be at a "frequent" rate.

To start off:

 

[Grover]

looks beautiful dude, certainly an "orbiter-must-have" to be

 

[IronRain]

It's going to be more awesome then it already was Great work

 

[Scruce]

Thanks, to all on the development team taking a top addon, and making it even better!

 

[N_Molson]

I'm just going to add a few horses under the hood, the meshes are already done

For now, I'm working on the 7K-T version (no solar panels, 2 seats). Currently setting the basic stuff : RCS layout, main, retro, etc...

 

[N_Molson]

Now the cockpit camera is set as if you were looking through the Vzor. I guess it should be able to make a 360° turn, but limited in up/down movements, like in a submarine.



I tilted the camera so that when on horizon level, the big BO antenna is "head up". Don't know if there was a "default attitude" on that Soyuz7K-T ? Or maybe it is not possible to move the Vzor at all (no idea) ?

 

[diogom]

I think it couldn't be moved at all, 'cause it was used for alignment with the re-entry attitude, like in the Vostok.
I always thought the Vzor was used for docking. Turns out the views we see are from a little camera on the BO...

 

[4throck]

The Vzor simulation using the default Orbiter camera view is interesting.

We will be leaving the sc3 version available in OH as a legacy add-on, because it's a different implementation with different goals (for example the VC).

This dll version is more aimed at things like separate spacraft implementation, RCS, EVA, etc. But lets not get ahead of ourselves and let N_Molson work his magic.

For now, if anyone has any info regarding the Vizor or the camera on the BO please post it here. He already have the diagrams for the little CRT display in the Soyuz cockpit (basically alignment information), so simulating something like that as our main camera view is certainly an option.

 

[N_Molson]

I think that the important point is to have at least one camera aligned with the docking target of the other vehicule (in this case, another Soyuz 7K-T I guess). Remember, we can set multiple camera and switch between them, that's another option.

Also, I was looking where are the RCS thrusters on the mesh and from what I can see, there is a translation axis that is "better" than the other. Also, the retrofire capacity seems very limited (the two tiny 98N thrusters that don't even point straight forward).

The other think I don't get is the layout of the aft engines. The center nozzle is the main, right. What is the purpose of the two others ? Backup ? Or alternate thrust mode ? Same for the 4 smaller ones ? Any information on this is welcome.


(this set of thrusters).

 

[diogom]

I think that the important point is to have at least one camera aligned with the docking target of the other vehicule (in this case, another Soyuz 7K-T I guess). Remember, we can set multiple camera and switch between them, that's another option.

Also, I was looking where are the RCS thrusters on the mesh and from what I can see, there is a translation axis that is "better" than the other. Also, the retrofire capacity seems very limited (the two tiny 98N thrusters that don't even point straight forward).

The other think I don't get is the layout of the aft engines. The center nozzle is the main, right. What is the purpose of the two others ? Backup ? Or alternate thrust mode ? Same for the 4 smaller ones ? Any information on this is welcome.


(this set of thrusters).

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19750015550_1975015550.pdf Scrolling down to page 20, the four little ones are labeled as "steering jets" and the two smaller nozzles are "duplicate correcting engine". The four ones its clear they're RCS thrusters, but what would "duplicate correcting engine" be? The center nozzle is labeled "basic approaching-correcting engine" ...

One of the 7k's big problem was weak maneuverability http://www.astronautix.com/craft/soyuz7kt.htm so the weak retrofire thrusters might be normal. Not pointing straight forward so the exhaust doesn't hit the BO.

As for the cameras, the Salyut 6 used in the scenarios has some docking targets, though I'm not sure they'd be aligned with the said camera. I'll check it.

Edit: Nope, only targets for Vzor.

 

[4throck]

The RCS placements on the current 7K are accurate, give the documentation we have. Yes, they are somewhat redundant, and the same goes for the main engine. From what I remember this has to do with the double RCS modes of the Soyuz (different / more / less jets used together).

The targets in Salyut seem well placed. But a better test would be the Soyuz 4 / 5 pair. If we are simulating the vizor and if the targets are for that, it the correct option.

Since we are reusing meshes, simply try to dock the .dll version with the .sc3 one


Regarding the Vzor, here's some info:

from http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=5966.5;wap2: "Is there some kind of controls on the panel (all Soyuz variant from the 7K-OK) for the crew to rotate the direction of the Vzor? It appears (at least on the old Soyuz) that it could be rotated upon commands from the KSU (Command-signal systems), but could the crew use a more manual way of modifying the pan (sort of like for a submarine periscope)?

- Obviously the Vzor cannot tilt itself, but I have read somewhere that the optical system on its head allow for a bit of tilt (+/- 15deg). Is that correct?"

And here's an image through it:

 

[diogom]

So the Vzor was indeed used for docking? Seems so through that image. From Astronautix it seemed its only use was orientation.

 

[N_Molson]

OK, so it will be realistic if there is some unwanted torque during some manoeuvers. Given the layout of the thrusters, roll, for exemple, will be very fuel inefficient and should be used as little as possible. In the same way the up/down translation axis should be preferred to the right/left, because there are no thrusters pointing in those directions, only at 45°.

The more I get acquainted with that 7K-T, the more I find the TMA is like a supercar. :lol: I don't want to hear anybody saying that the Soyuz is "roughly the same since 40 years" again ; that is completely untrue !

First shock was : oh ok, only 500 kg of propellant instead of the TMA 880 kgs.
Second shock was : oh ok, batteries for only 48 hours, while the TMA is electrically autonomous.

Also, if I'm right, this version has only 2 seats !

duplicate correcting engine

Yes I read that too and can't understand what it means. Maybe someone using American/English as his native language can see through this (but I fear this is more NASA-ish than anything else) ?

 

[Wishbone]

This is the Renglish for "backup orbital maneuver system".

 

[Urwumpe]

The periscope can be flipped between nadir(down) and forward, not sure if it can be rotated. Additionally it has optics at its base that permit sighting the horizon (indicated at the petals around the Vzor)

 

[N_Molson]

Yeah, I was suspecting something like that. The doc is from the 70's, the Soviets probably prefered to avoid talking about "backup engines", which supposes that the main can fail. And Apollo had only one.

So, in Orbiter, you shouldn't be able to run the main + backup at the same time (else it's like having a more powerful engine, which wasn't the case).

Well, here are the references on Astronautix :

- Soyuz 7K-T

- KDTU-35 engine

Also, I'm not sure how to "translate" that data to Orbiter (where are which thrusters ?) :

RCS Coarse No x Thrust: 14 X 98 N.
RCS Fine No x Thrust: 4 X 98 N.
RCS Coarse Backup No x Thrust: 8 x 10 N.
RCS Fine Backup No x Thrust: 4 x 10 N roll.

 

[Urwumpe]

According to my book, the early Soyuz series had two systems: DO and DPO

The DPO system (Approach and Orientation system) had ten 10 kg thrusters at the intermediate compartment (behind the SA) and 4 10 kg thrusters at the aft end. The DO (orientation system) had 8 1 kg thrusters at the aft end, that only permitted attitude control.

 

[4throck]

Check page 60:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dbGchpi1HP8C&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=soyuz+7k+vzor&source=bl&ots=Scn_dcYm0z&sig=_sKgAXt4yXEwwzo-H6ui_Kwkrik&hl=pt-PT&ei=WA6WToHLEoew8gOnrryFBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=soyuz%207k%20vzor&f=false


And also see the screens here (first half of the page):

http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/read.php?f=5&i=14381&t=14313&page=-1

 

[Urwumpe]

Check page 60:

That is where I have the information from... but I have the book here, in analog form.

 

[N_Molson]

OK, so here for exemple, I use one of the DPO 10kg (98.1 N) verniers to yaw the vessel right.



Those four thrusters alone are enough to have a basic control of pitch / yaw, I tried and it works. Of course, you gain velocity on the +Z axis.

Next step should be to link them with the remaining 10x 98.1N thrusters located on the PAO (if I understood everything right) to get the whole DPO system running. Here I have to figure which combinations are going to give the most efficient results (minimal torque).

Then we would have the DPO as a "coarse" (rotation+translation) system, and the DP as a "fine" (or backup) system (rotation only). Again, if I got it correctly.

Would it be possible to update the mesh to get the 1kg or 9.81N thrusters ?

---------- Post added at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/re...=14313&page=-1

I read most of the topic as it is in french. Seems that no_matter was quite advanced on the project but he said he "lost contact" with the person doing the meshes. Anyone heard of that ? Also, it seems he had great difficulties with RL job, and had no longer any time for Orbiter. Lots of great ideas here, but I don't want to "steal" anything.