The question about a burn time calculation

Phil Smith

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hi everybody!:tiphat:
so can anyone help me out - how to calculate a project burning time for TLI etc.?
for example -
we have a spacecraft that weights 200,000 pounds at LEO with 2engines 500,000 N thrust each, spec. impulse - 420s
and how can i calculate the burn time for trans-lunar of trans-mars injection?
i'll appreciate your answers much:hailprobe:

PS - i know the question might sound simple but im just a rookie for awhile :lol:
 

Jarvitä

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First, you'd have to calculate the delta-V required - see [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohmann_transfer"]Hohmann Transfer[/ame]. Then, you'd have to integrate that with regards to your spacecraft's varying acceleration relative to the changing mass. As long as you assume a constant mass flow and constant thrust, it's not that complex a calculation.
 

Phil Smith

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oh man thanx! nice reading!
btw, did you mean to calculate the burnin time from Tsiolkovsky rocket equation?
deltaV = Isp*LN((M + Mprop)/M)
so for exemple -
deltaV = 3.5 km/s
Isp = 4200 m/s
M = 200,000 lb (spacecraft dry mass)
and from that equation we'll find the propellent mass Mprop
Mprop = (exp(deltaV/Isp))*M-M = (exp(3.5/4.2))*200,000 - 200,000 = 260,500 lb
and knowin engine mass flow (mdot) we can calculate burning time (t)..
Engine mdot = 500lb/sec, we got two of them so mdot = 500*2 = 1,000 lb/sec
and t = Mprop/mdot = 260,500/1,000 = 260.5 sec..
uh, is this way correct?:facepalm:
 
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Relayer91

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oh man thanx! nice reading!
btw, did you mean to calculate the burnin time from Tsiolkovsky rocket equation?
deltaV = Isp*LN((M + Mprop)/M)
so for exemple -
deltaV = 3.5 km/s
Isp = 4200 m/s
M = 200,000 lb (spacecraft dry mass)
and from that equation we'll find the propellent mass Mprop
Mprop = (exp(deltaV/Isp))*M-M = (exp(3.5/4.2))*200,000 - 200,000 = 260,500 lb
and knowin engine mass flow (mdot) we can calculate burning time (t)..
Engine mdot = 500lb/sec, we got two of them so mdot = 500*2 = 1,000 lb/sec
and t = Mprop/mdot = 260,500/1,000 = 260.5 sec..
uh, is this way correct?:facepalm:

One of the things just to bear in mind - I can't remember much about how to calculate this stuff manually - but you've got metric and imperial units in the same calculations, which could (if I am not mistaken, which I may well be) produce an erroneous result.
 

kwan3217

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1) Use BurnTimeCalc MFD, on OrbitHangar
2) If you want to know the math yourself, rather than just using that MFD, the rocket equation is the way to go, as mentioned above.
3) Also as mentioned above, be careful with units. If you are using Orbiter, all the units are already SI, so the problems are less.
4) In particular, be careful with the units on specific impulse. The rocket equation wants this to be in m/s (or just units of velocity) while many sources give it in "seconds". Specific impulse is impulse (how much force applied for how much time, SI units N*s) per unit mass of fuel used. In SI, specific impulse is newton-seconds per kilogram, which believe it or not, simplifies to meters per second. HOWEVER, in american units, it is (pounds force)-seconds per (pounds mass), which is then simplified to "seconds" since pounds force and pounds mass are the same, right?:facepalm:Europeans, you are not guilt-free either. I have seen (kilograms force)-seconds per (kilogram mass)="seconds" which makes even less sense, because SI and kilograms were designed from the start to not confuse mass and force, and kilograms-force is an unnecessary unit.

It is officially "recommended" that when you talk about specific impulse in velocity units, that it be called effective velocity, v_e. In these units, the rocket equation is:

deltav=v_e*ln(m_0/m_1) (1)

Deltav is the change in velocity (m/s in SI), m_0 is the initial mass of the vehicle and m_1 is the final mass of the vehicle (both kg in SI). Note that this equation does not include either the thrust of the engine or the burn time. The thrust F (Newtons in SI) of the engine is

F=mdot/v_e (2)

where mdot is the total propellant burn rate (kg/s in SI).

So, for your maneuver, you can solve (1) for any one variable if you know the other three. The difference between m_0 and m_1 will tell you how much fuel you have used, and you can use

deltam=t*mdot (3)

to find the time t (s in SI) of the burn.

If you insist on using Isp in "seconds", you have to include a conversion factor in (1):

deltav=Isp*g_0*ln(m_0/m_1) (1a)
v_e=Isp*g_0 (1b)

You can either use 1b to find effective velocity, or use Isp in "seconds" directly in 1a. In either case, g_0 is the standard acceleration of gravity, 9.80665m/s^2 or the equivalent ~32.2ft/s^2 in American units. It is specifically NOT the local acceleration of gravity where the vessel is. This factor is used only to convert mass units into force units.

So your example:
deltaV = Isp*LN((M + Mprop)/M)
so for exemple -
deltaV = 3.5 km/s
Isp = 4200 m/s
M = 200,000 lb (spacecraft dry mass)
and from that equation we'll find the propellent mass Mprop
Mprop = (exp(deltaV/Isp))*M-M = (exp(3.5/4.2))*200,000 - 200,000 = 260,500 lb
and knowin engine mass flow (mdot) we can calculate burning time (t)..
Engine mdot = 500lb/sec, we got two of them so mdot = 500*2 = 1,000 lb/sec
and t = Mprop/mdot = 260,500/1,000 = 260.5 sec..
uh, is this way correct?
Actually this is all correct, even though you are mixing SI length and time with american mass, since all that matters is the ratio of start and end mass. If you changed all the units to kg (M=200,000kg, etc) it would still be right. This is one of the rare times that mixing units doesn't bite you in a Mars Climate Orbiter fashion.
 
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Phil Smith

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kwan3217 - thank you very much! very useful info!:thumbup:
ok i'll try not mixin units anymore:)

so one question more:
in the Mars travel we've got along with trans-mars injection (TMI) and mars parking orbit insertion and trans earth injection and earth orbits insertion and mid-course corrections as well.
so how calculate how much fuel we need for all entire trip (all deltaVs are known)?
it confused me little bit cause in rocket equation we got just mass ratio:
deltav=Isp*g_0*ln(m_0/m_1) (1a)
m_0 - is spacecraft dry mass+cargo + all propellent
m_1 - is spacecraft dry mass+cargo + propellent left for next maneuvers
so i need to find "propellent left for next maneuvers" - how can i calculate this?
 

kwan3217

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kwan3217 - thank you very much! very useful info!:thumbup:
ok i'll try not mixin units anymore:)

so one question more:
in the Mars travel we've got along with trans-mars injection (TMI) and mars parking orbit insertion and trans earth injection and earth orbits insertion and mid-course corrections as well.
so how calculate how much fuel we need for all entire trip (all deltaVs are known)?
it confused me little bit cause in rocket equation we got just mass ratio:
deltav=Isp*g_0*ln(m_0/m_1) (1a)
m_0 - is spacecraft dry mass+cargo + all propellent
m_1 - is spacecraft dry mass+cargo + propellent left for next maneuvers
so i need to find "propellent left for next maneuvers" - how can i calculate this?

For concreteness, we'll use some numbers. 20 metric ton (20000kg) spacecraft (dry+cargo). Say that TransX says you need 4km/s to depart Earth parking orbit (7.5km/s to 11.5km/s), 3km/s to enter Mars orbit, and 3km/s to depart Mars, and 4km/s to return to Earth parking orbit. You then decide to budget 100m/s for trajectory correction. This all presumes no aerobraking, which you could use to almost eliminate the fuel you need to enter orbit at each end.

To get the total DeltaV needed, you just add up the DeltaV of each maneuver, so 14.1km/s (14100 m/s).

Now, you know the DeltaV, effective velocity, and final mass of the spacecraft with no fuel at the end of the mission (20 tons, as mentioned above). How much fuel do you need?

First, solve the rocket equation for the missing value, m_0

deltav=v_e*ln(m_0/m_1) (1)
deltav/v_e=ln(m_0/m_1)
exp(deltav/v_e)=m_0/m_1
m_1*exp(deltav/v_e)=m_0 (2)

Let's say you are using a currently achievable v_e of 4500m/s (Space shuttle main engines are this efficient). So, plug the numbers:

m_0=20000kg*exp(14100m/s / 4500m/s)
m_0=459007kg (459 tons!)

If the starting mass is 459 tons and the final mass is 20 tons, then this mission requires 439 tons of fuel. This is roughly equivalent to a fully fueled Shuttle external tank. However, a Shuttle external tank weighs over 30 tons by itself.

We begin to see how difficult a trip to Mars is... What if we use the DeltaGlider engine efficiency, 44000m/s?

m_0=20000kg*exp(14100m/s / 44000m/s)
m_0=27555kg

This time it only takes 7.5 tons of fuel.

You can do it the other way also. If you have a 20-ton delta glider with 10 tons of fuel, how much DeltaV are you carrying? Just run equation 1 directly:

m_0=30000kg
m_1=20000kg
v_e=44000m/s
deltav=v_e*ln(m_0/m_1)=44000*ln(30000/20000)=17840m/s

Now to answer the question you started with. This time we solve (1) for m_1

m_0=30000kg (20ton vehicle+cargo and 10ton fuel)
v_e=44000m/s
deltav=14100m/s (Earth->Mars->Earth mission)

deltav=v_e*ln(m_0/m_1) (1)
deltav/v_e=ln(m_0/m_1)
exp(deltav/v_e)=m_0/m_1
exp(deltav/v_e)/m_0=1/m_1
m_0/exp(deltav/v_e)=m_1 (3)
30000/exp(14100/44000)=m_1
m_1=21775kg

so you have m_fuel=m_1-m_dry=21775kg-20000kg=1775kg of fuel left after the mission. You can break the mission down by each maneuver, using the deltav of that maneuver only as the required deltav, and the m_1 of the previous maneuver as the m_0 of the next.

Note that as long as you only use fuel, never re-load fuel, and never drop stages, you can consider your tanks to be full of DeltaV rather than fuel. We calculated above that a delta glider with 10 tons of fuel has 17.84km/s of deltav. After the Mars mission uses up 14.1km/s, you have 17.84-14.1=3.74km/s of deltav left. You used 83% of your fuel mass on the mars mission, but only 79% of your available DeltaV. The last bit of fuel is more efficient at producing DeltaV since it doesn't have to push around the first bit of fuel, while the first bit of fuel does have to push around the last. The lower the fuel v_e, the bigger this effect gets.
 
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Phil Smith

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kwan3217 thank u very much!!!
Liquid rocket engines aint what we need for space-travel cause of low specific impulse, huge propellent mass and long travel time.
So i think using a plasma propulsion engines will be the best way to travel to Mars in the future.
Nowadays we got 50 kW prototype of VASIMR engine that gives about 5,000 seс spec.impulse and provides about 0.1lbf of thrust and it's shown not bad results
 

Eagle1Division

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This thread is a little old, but not too old...

What if you don't know the ISP, but you know flow rate, thrust and Delta-Vee needed for the burn? I'm pretty sure this would be a convergent set calculation...
(Calculate burn time, multiply by Kg/s, subtract from mass, re-calculate average acceleration, find shorter burn time, repeat)
Except I'm only going into Calculus this year, so I don't know how to do those.

It would be a lot easier if I could just find the ISP of the DGIV, but no, it's not listed anywhere! Pages of technical data and even a Cntrl-I function, but nowhere is the ISP or Mass Ratio listed! What were they thinking? :facepalm:

Luckily the DGIV has a very low mass ratio and high ISP, so for any practical purpose I don't need a calculus level of accuracy on the convergent set...
 
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martins

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This thread is a little old, but not too old...

What if you don't know the ISP, but you know flow rate, thrust and Delta-Vee needed for the burn? I'm pretty sure this would be a convergent set calculation...
(Calculate burn time, multiply by Kg/s, subtract from mass, re-calculate average acceleration, find shorter burn time, repeat)
If you have flow rate and thrust you also have ISP. No iteration required. No calculus either.
 
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