Updates Ares Updates and Discussion

[Insane]

Yes. But it is highly likely that the review is going to conclude and imply to stay the course, merely with a few optimizations here and there. It would be a risky decision to cancel the complete Ares concepts and start roughly at zero. The Augustine Commission by far is not what some Ares opponents seem to think. Look at the members...

Do you think Ares is anywhere but Zero right now? There is no 5.5seg booster, there is no Ares I upper stage, no J2-X engine. With Ares V, the best way to sum up the things it needs which currently exist, I heard elsewhere - "Orange foam". New tank diameter, new engines, new SRBs, pads, launch platforms, the works.

Now look at the alternatives:

DIRECT -
4 seg SRB - already exists, flown hundreds of times.
8.4m diameter external tank - ditto.
SSMEs - yup, they exist.
Upper stage engine (RL10) - mhm.
Infrastructure - same as Shuttle, pretty much.

Needs to be done - plumb the SSMEs into the bottom of the ET; alter the top of the tank to accomodate the inline design. I'm simplifying, but you get the picture. Neither task is a walk in the park, but compared to developing new rockets?

Not Shuttle-C -
Pretty much the Shuttle stack without the Orbiter.

EELV -
They also have the benefit of existing, as a whole.

Need to be manrated.


The only way the commission could actively decide to start from Zero, would be to choose to stick with Ares. Theres nothing there, other than a test flight with no real bearing on the actual Ares I. And technical problems. I cannot fathom why the commission would elect to continue to spend so much money developing two brand new vehicles. Or why Obama would allow it.

 

[Ark]

I don't get why they shot down DIRECT, it looks like it would keep more Shuttle people employed than Ares would. Maybe it's too easy, and the contractors would miss out on all that R&D money.

 

[ijuin]

I don't get why they shot down DIRECT, it looks like it would keep more Shuttle people employed than Ares would. Maybe it's too easy, and the contractors would miss out on all that R&D money.

I figure it's because of the Not Invented Here syndrome.

 

[Insane]

I figure it's because of the Not Invented Here syndrome.

Even though, in a delightfully ironic twist, it actually was, or at least something very close to it. Many times.

I'm sorry Kyle, I can't help it!

 

[Moonwalker]

Do you think Ares is anywhere but Zero right now?

No I don't think that, because it is a fact. Ares by far is not just something on paper anymore, other than DIRECT.

Voices are growing, including such who actually critize Ares, that the commission is very likely not going to dissuade from the current program and its progress, which made it that far DIRECT-fans only can dream about

 

[Orbinaut Pete]

Voices are growing, including such who actually critize Ares, that the commission is very likely not going to dissuade from the current program and its progress, which made it that far DIRECT-fans only can dream about

I think such talk is merely to stop the media from launching a massive story about how much taxpayer money NASA would have wasted on Ares if it were cancelled, which would cause a public outcry, and prevent Ares from being cancelled at all.

If NASA were not willing to change Ares, then the Augustine Commission would not have been tasked with looking into alternatives.

There are plenty within NASA who would still like to see Ares cancelled.

It doesn't matter how much progress has been made, what matters is how much progress still needs to be made before it can fly.
Ares may be farther down the line that DIRECT, but that doesn't mean that it will necessarily be quicker to finish than DIRECT.

Indeed, the DIRECT team is currently looking to see how much Ares hardware that has already begun construction (such as the new Mobile Launcher) could be used for DIRECT, so as to minimise the hardware waste, and subsequent money & time loss if a switch from Ares to DIRECT were made (which in turn would make a switch from Ares to DIRECT more attractive to NASA ).

 

[Insane]

No I don't think that, because it is a fact. Ares by far is not just something on paper anymore, other than DIRECT.

Voices are growing, including such who actually critize Ares, that the commission is very likely not going to dissuade from the current program and its progress, which made it that far DIRECT-fans only can dream about

You seem to think that the commission are actually deciding on the next course of action, from hereon out. They aren't. They aren't recommending any one option to Obama. They aren't dictating which option he'll choose. And, he isn't going to pick Ares solely because "we've flown a testflight". Or because some money has been spent on it already, and there are technical drawings. That would be a horrific way to decide upon the best way to launch the next generation of manned spacecraft. They should be deciding it on what is affordable in FUTURE, whilst helping to reduce the Gap, and still able to meet Constellation's needs.

Ares is one of a number of options, as I listed previously. It is far closer to being given the boot than you seem to think, based on huge cost overruns and the extremely long time till even Ares I is operational with a manned crew. The committee presents these OPTIONS to Obama, without any personal recommendations. They present him with the facts of each approach, he selects the most suitable one. He has no ties to Ares, and he isn't going to like the potential costs of it. Nor the ability of it. Believe it or not, they might not even present Ares as one of the options, based on those huge costs. It's just not a smart system right now.

There are plenty within NASA who would like to see Ares cancelled.

It doesn't matter how much progress has been made, what matters is how much progress still needs to be made before it can fly...

Bingo.

 

[Ark]

It should be flown and detonated to gather more data about the fireball incinerating the crew.

With a follow-up launch abort test to gather data about flaming solid rocket fuel melting the parachute.

 

[Insane]

Since there's some discussion over the Ares rockets in another thread, I thought that instead of doing Kyle the disservice of cluttering his thread up with tangential debates, it may as well come into an appropriately headed topic.

Is Ares I dead? If not, should it be killed, immediately? Is there anything to it currently? Could it work? Well? Is the money spent on it already enough to merit it's continuation? Is there a more appropriate course of action?

As has been said in the other thread, the fact that a test flight with hardware that won't be used by the eventual rocket is going to fly in a couple of months (?), and that time and money has been spent on its development, is no reason to continue with it. Whatever Nasa ends up building is going to be lofting Orion into orbit for the next however many years. This is a hugely important decision. Important enough to scrap the last four years work, and the few billion already spent, since it saves the next 30 years, and however many hundreds of billions.

Apologies if people are already bored of this debate and just want something done, I just get the desire to argue occasionally

 

[dougkeenan]

Why not use it to test the USAF hypothesis?

 

[Insane]

Ares I-X? I have heard that mentioned, wasn't sure whether it was actually on the drawing board officially or not though. Would probably be a good idea.

 

[agentgonzo]

Ares 5-stage SRB to be tested today (static firing) at 1900 UTC.

 

[Brad]

Ares 5-stage SRB to be tested today (static firing) at 1900 UTC.

And LUCK ME.. I will be there to watch it! Here is a nice short video about the DM-1 test schedule for today: http://wst2.atk.com/public/DM1_Trailer_H264.wmv

 

[Ark]

Due to the new launch date of 31st October (Halloween), Ares I-X has adopted a "Thriller" theme for it's latest launch poster:

www.nasawatch.com/archives/2009/07/ares_adopts_thr.html

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scAres I-X :rofl:

Hahahaha, awesome. It's just a glorified model rocket, might as well have some fun with it! :lol:

 

[Brad]

DM-1 Got down to T-20 seconds and then they scrubbed. DANG IT! I had a perfect view too. No date has been rescheduled so far.

 

[Orbinaut Pete]

Hahahaha, awesome. It's just a glorified model rocket, might as well have some fun with it! :lol:

Ha Ha - yeah - the only thing that is scary about it, is the price! :rofl:

---------- Post added at 21:26 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

DM-1 Got down to T-20 seconds and then they scrubbed. DANG IT! I had a perfect view too. No date has been rescheduled so far.

It was scrubbed due to a hydraulic issue with the thrust vector control on the nozzle.

---------- Post added ----------

Full article on scrub:

www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0908/27dm1scrub

 

[barcode]

Ha Ha - yeah - the only thing that is scary about it, is the price! :rofl:

Since the money's already been more or less spent, they might as launch that thing and have some fun. At least that way Ares 1-X won't have been a total loss.

 

[Brad]

Looks like September 1st might be the new date. Hope so... if this is the case I can watch it again. (Keeping fingers crossed)

 

[NukeET]

DM-1 Got down to T-20 seconds and then they scrubbed. DANG IT! I had a perfect view too. No date has been rescheduled so far.

Looks like September 1st might be the new date. Hope so... if this is the case I can watch it again. (Keeping fingers crossed)

Are you talking about an "eyeball" view? If so, where can the public view it?

 

[Brad]

Are you talking about an "eyeball" view? If so, where can the public view it?

Yes...and EYEBALL view. Just head west on Promontory Road (UT83) and go toward the Golden Spike museum. Follow the signs to the ATK test site. You'll need to get there early as parking is limited and fills up quickly. Gives you a nice chance to meet a lot of astronauts, NASA types and so forth.

Here is a link on Google maps:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.661691,-112.425756&spn=0.044501,0.076818&t=h&z=14