Flight Question Can't get CEV Orion into orbit

MetalMania

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Hi,

I'm returning to Orbiter after a bit of a hiatus, been using the DG getting used to the MFDs and doing some manual flights into LEO (a bit sloppy but it's working), docking with ISS, couple of Moon transfers. I felt like trying something different, so I downloaded Francis Drake's Orion CEV which includes an Ares 1 launcher. It is a beta I know, has no autopilot and comes with two scenarios: Earth launch and ISS docking. The launch scenario has the ship set up for a 42 degree azimuth (seems fixed on the 222 heading with a pitch back to heading 42). The instructions just say to pitch back to +15, but not when or for how long. I've tried a few times launching to LEO with different pitches and always end up unable to maintain a positive climb rate while trying to build up enough velocity to get into orbit. My nickname is becoming "Fireball".

So, does anyone have this addon who can offer some advice on what kind of launch profile I should fly to make it to LEO? I'm sure the margin for error is much smaller than the DG, so far I don't seem to be anywhere close.
 

MJR

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15 degrees is pretty low. Try 40 or something. I dunno, but trying to gain V/S from 15 degrees is pretty hard unless you have strong multiple engines.
 

MetalMania

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Right, that's why it didn't make much sense to me. Maybe something like "fly 70 degrees until xxk altitude until the booster burns out and then drop to 50 until xxk then hold at 15" would work - and I'm sure he put 15 in the doc for a reason but I just don't know when to employ it.
 

MJR

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Just try out different launch profiles and see which works best. 15 degrees is the point in launch where you are "slowing" down you rate so your orbit will be as low in eccentricity as possible.
 

statickid

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when manually launching rockets, I use the orbit mfd coupled with the surface mfd for valuable information.

These two can help you balance vertical vs. horizontal acceleration.

I always use the first part of the flight to gain vertical trajectory and some general direction to my launch so: (p.s. i just mean stages of the process not actual rocket stages lol)

First stage: vertical acceleration and establishment of compass heading by a shallow pitch

Second stage: around 40-70km alt- more pitch, maintain AP or goal AP of around 150-180km, start managing vertical acceleration and/or trying to keep it at zero. the vertical acceleration is found on the bottom right of the surface mfd.

Third stage: manage AP and vertical acceleration with pitch. The process or managing vertical acceleration with pitch seems to automatically put you in orbit.

This is just a vague explanation of how I personally do it, but it is very efficient. I learned this method by observing the apollo and soyuz autopilots very closely and figuring out what they accomplish. Once I figured this out I could launch rockets by hand just as well as their autopilots!
 

Sky Captain

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In case the second stage is low powered you have to build up enough vertical velocity with first stage to be able to maintain positive vertical velocity after stage seperation while second stage is still nearly full of fuel and accelerate slowly.
 

MetalMania

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Well, I need to work on it some more but I did manage to get it into orbit. Once. I can't really remember what I did though. I watched the AMSO Apollo autopilot but the Saturn V has so much more power available I'm not sure it's the best example to follow. But I did get a better idea of managing the VACC so it must have helped somewhat. It was ugly but at least I know it can be done. I was really starting to feel like it just wasn't possible. After using the DG for a while, this one feels grossly underpowered after the SRB first stage burns out!
 

MetalMania

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Figured I'd throw an update to my thread out in case anyone else was having the same problems I was getting into orbit with this addon. I can now get into a stable orbit just about every time. Here's what I do:

Stay 90 degrees vertical until about 1000m Alt. Then pitch back to around 75 - 80 degrees, which begins what I guess is referred to as a gravity turn - gravity will start to pull the nose down towards the horizon. This happens relatively slowly in the flights I've done, and once the VV gets to around 70 degrees I start bringing the pitch back to stay just about on pace with the VV as it moves down (actually up on screen as the rocket is "heads down"). When altitude approaches 30km I speed up the pitch back a little until it gets to about 40 - 35 degrees and hold it there as the VV keeps moving towards a lower angle. I think the 1st stage SRB burns out and separates somewhere around 65 - 70k Alt flying this profile. At this point the V/S is usually somewhere in the 700 - 800 m/s range. When the 2nd stage engine starts, it's WAY less powerful than the SRB and VACC instantly goes negative to around minus 4.5. I hold the 35 - 40 degree pitch angle to counteract the negative VACC and slowly start bringing it to zero or a slightly positive value. This takes a while, but it takes a while for the V/S to come down too, though at first it's dropping pretty fast. By the time VACC gets to zero I'm usually somewhere around 180km altitude with a V/S still around +100 m/s. Now I start bringing the pitch slowly down towards level to the horizon, keeping an eye on the VACC value. If it gets back to -1 again I'll hold pitch for a few moments to get it back to zero or slightly positive and start pitching back again to get the thrust vector as horizontal as I can to build speed. I keep repeating the process a few times and as I do that the V/S is slowly coming to around 0 or just a small +/- value. By the time orbital velocity is achieved I'm usually close to 200 km alt, ApA is between 350 - 400km and I have just a few seconds of fuel left. With the supplied scenario my RInc to the ISS always ends up between 2 - 3 degrees. I use the remaining fuel in the 2nd stage for part of the alignment burn (the burn time with just the service module engine is over 200 seconds! I don't know if that's realistic or not (probably) but it seems painfully long when you're used to the power and efficiency of the DG), then separate and do a circularization burn with the service module and auxiliary thrusters at ApA. ApA and PeA adjustment burns are much more efficient with the SM engine, I'd probably be better off cutting off the 2nd stage with a lower but still safe ApA and saving a little more fuel for the plane alignment.

Anyway I'm sure my ascent profile isn't the most efficient or graceful, and I couldn't nail a precise orbit if I needed to, but I can do it consistently now where before I would be a meteor every time. I've definitely learned another thing or two in the process which I can now apply to probably any launch in any craft. Thanks for the help!
 

simcosmos

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Anyway I'm sure my ascent profile isn't the most efficient or graceful, and I couldn't nail a precise orbit if I needed to, but I can do it consistently now where before I would be a meteor every time. I've definitely learned another thing or two in the process which I can now apply to probably any launch in any craft. Thanks for the help!

Hi MetalMania


Although I'm arriving late at this thread - which maybe was a good thing because that way you were able to try for yourself some ascent strategies vs impact on performance (and, as you noted, that is a good way to learn some things) - I would like to write that there is some 'literature' out there about AresI ascent goals / trajectories. That information should be found with a good search on Constellation related pdf available at NTRS (NASA Technical Reports Server - http://ntrs.nasa.gov/ ) although some care should be taken when reading that information, in particular because there have been several AresI design iterations which, depending of specific configuration assumptions made, do have slightly different trajectory shapes vs timing of ascent events, etc.


On yet another note would like to point to francisdrake's development thread where I have contributed with some AresI ascent notes (http://orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=1043) as well have written a few notes on my clearly outdated AresI dev2007 pdf documentation ( [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2770"]NASA AresI SC - 20070107dev[/ame] ).


Only for reference, at the time I made the multistage2.dll AresI dev2007 implementation I was using different 5 seg. SRB specs than the official ones as well was assuming J-2XD, a derrated version of the J-2X (on a much lighter upper stage with ~130t of prop. load).


Since then a lot more information has been made public and I have updated (but not released, at least not yet) the performance implementation to be more similar to latest known AresI iterations (5 seg. SRB specs, full J-2X thrust spec on a heavier dry stage mass with capability to carry ~140t prop, Orion integration, LAS, etc) as well tried to take in account some additional mass related with Thrust Oscillation mitigation options and then tried to study what could be the performance impact of all those changes on AresI, this because, from some months (years) now, that there is little information about a complete and integrated data set regarding AresI numbers... And with all what is happening in the current context (Congress actions, SLS, etc) I suspect that it might take a good while to see such kind of data, if ever.


Another thing that I sometimes still brainstorm about is related with Orion integration (I mean, at external addon level): Constellation conceptual AresI-Orion flights to ISS would require an offloaded Orion SM (with half of the tanks removed) but I can't exactly implement it – not without a few workarounds – if using an Orion powered by a custom 'external' dll (if such dll does not load by default with half of the tanks load). This is why - in order to avoid some of the required workarounds to make that work - that I might include one of my own alternative Orion versions (powered by Vinka's spacecraft.dll)... Other alternative would be if there could exist an Orion dll which would only load the Command Module alone (so that the service module - either powered by generic dlls or by custom dll - or other kind of spacecraft configurations could better integrate such CM). This for AresI-Orion ISS flights, for Exploration Missions could integrate something like francisdrake's nice Orion CEV without having to worry about this kind of stuff.


In any case will share here an incomplete preview of, at least, some of the visual updates that was making for my interpretation of 'real life' AresI. If comparing with the 3D models used on dev2007 version people can see a few changes on the 5 seg. SRB as well on the upper stage thrust structure, tank size, etc, Orion integration, LAS... some material / texture work still missing on this specific (outdated) picture as well some other details missing, such as the upper stage RCS or the LO2/LH2 umbilicals, etc (my apologies for the dark shadow on the Orion adapter / SM area). As far as I'm aware, Francisdrake's CEV-Orion currently online implementation is something in-between my older 'dev2007' and the current dev2010 files on 'simcosmos' archives.




Independently of 'real life' stuff, would like to end by writing that AresI is a challenging and fun vehicle to 'fly' and study in Orbiter Simulator, in particular if starting adding mass to some components and if assuming that the upper stage engine does not meet expected performance levels. Of course that depending of changes made to some assumptions this might require, from the final user, some extra skills (or extra software input!) to optimize the ascent trajectory as much as possible...



One way to make things slightly 'easier' would be to assume an SSME thrust level on the upper stage, like what I'm assuming on NASA VSE SC alternative reality AresI configuration (but that choice comes with some prices: in the case of NASA VSE SC development archives, I'm currently baselining a dual J-2S setup with only 436s vac. ISP instead of an expendable SSME, but that is another story)



António
 

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MetalMania

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Hi Simcosmos,

Thanks for your post. I have to admit some of it went over my head with the .dlls and developer items. Haven't gotten to try any of that yet, or even create a scenerio yet. But it does help explain why I felt like it was "underpowered", being an older version built on certain presumed specifications. The updated model looks really nice. Good luck with your projects and I hope we get to see an updated Ares I / Orion sometime soon.
 

francisdrake

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Hi, when using any 'realistic' launcher I have a rule of thumb which nearly always works:

- Shortly after liftoff tip over form vertical towards the desired direction
- At 20 km height the pitch shall be 40°
- At 30 km height the pitch shall be 30°
- At 40 km height the pitch shall be 20°

When reaching 15° pitch I do killrot and wait for the first stage burnout.
I hold this pitch during the initial pase of the seconed stage burn.

When the vertical speed (best shown on the surface MFD) drops to 0, somewhere between 100 to 140 km altitude, I pitch up to 40° to keep the vertical speed around 0.

When the orbital speed increases I pitch down again, trying to keep the vertical speed around 0. This idealy ends in a prograde orientation just before second stage cutoff.

Try the 40-30-20° rule and you should make it into orbit :)
 

MetalMania

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Francisdrake, thanks for a) the addon and b) the launch trajectory advice. I'll give it a try. Just in case you happen to check this post again - I'm having another little problem and being still pretty new to Orbiter and addons I wonder if you might be able to help. If I use the Orion addon in Orbiter 2006, I have the UMMU crew. If I try it in Orbiter 2010 there's no crew visible either from the VC or externally looking into the ship. I get a 'UMMU misc error message, go to (DanSteph's webpage) to reinstall' error when the scenario starts. I ran the UMMU 2.0 patch (this is the version I have installed) and it says it patched the .dll for CEV-Orion but I still get no crew. Any idea what might be going on?
 
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