News German School Shooting

Master of Blades

New member
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
432
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Stockholm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm

"Fifteen people have been killed by a teenage gunman who went on a rampage in south-west Germany"

"The gunman, a 17-year-old former pupil named as Tim Kretschmer, entered the school at about 0930 (0830 GMT) in black combat gear and began shooting.
He fled in a stolen car, but killed himself after being cornered by police."



Truly sad that people are driven to such terrible actions.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,638
Reaction score
2,353
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Happened just hours after the Shooting Spree in Alabama. Today is obviously a good day to go postal.

As he concentrated on female persons in the first stage of the shootings, it is likely that love or the lack of it is involved. He also concentrated the shootings on two class rooms, but it is not known if this is because of the hidden alert of the director of the school ("Frau Koma" - Koma is "Amok" in reverse), which prompted at least one teacher to lock the door.

What I find mildy amusing is the fact, that computer games are the first to be blamed, 1.5 hours after the shooting started and about 4 hours before the first press conference, where the police announced that it is not yet known what they can find on the PC of the guy.

What is sure: It did contribute a lot to the number of dead and injured students, that the parents of the guy owned 18 guns legally, as well as a company-size pile of ammo, with 17 guns being locked in a safe. The ammo and the Beretta pistol which the guy used, had not been locked away. He took about 100 rounds of ammo with him.

This interest of his parents sure also influenced him a lot... it is known now, that he liked to play with guns in the cellar of his parents house.
 

Master of Blades

New member
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
432
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Stockholm
What I find mildy amusing is the fact, that computer games are the first to be blamed, 1.5 hours after the shooting started and about 4 hours before the first press conference, where the police announced that it is not yet known what they can find on the PC of the guy.

Ugh... Of course... We can't admit to the flaws in dealing with mentally ill boys, nor that parents shouldn't teach their kids to play with guns... So let's blame videogames instead -.-
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,638
Reaction score
2,353
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Ugh... Of course... We can't admit to the flaws in dealing with mentally ill boys, nor that parents shouldn't teach their kids to play with guns... So let's blame videogames instead -.-

It is a comfortable compromise. ;)

Even if his father was to be blamed for not locking one of his 15 guns (I had to correct my earlier number) away properly, it does not excuse the decisions of his son.

He went berserk, with modern tools. And he continued even though he had about 2 hours time to calm down and think about it. You can't explain this just with computer games, or just with bad gun handling laws.

I think what explains the death count better: Even a small amateur league football match has more policemen on the scene in Germany, than such a large school. The police arrived after about 5-10 minutes after the shooting started, with the attacker evading over the grounds of a nearby psychiatric hospital.
 

Jarvitä

New member
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,030
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Serface, Earth
Didn't even come close to the high score, but did prove that Germans are still better at this than the Finns, even though their attempts at the high score are less frequent.

Yes! This is sarcasm!
 

Andy44

owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
Addon Developer
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
7,620
Reaction score
7
Points
113
Location
In the Mid-Atlantic states
Urwumpe said:
Happened just hours after the Shooting Spree in Alabama. Today is obviously a good day to go postal.

Well, it's a full moon. The old myth perpetuates.

Urwumpe said:
What is sure: It did contribute a lot to the number of dead and injured students, that the parents of the guy owned 18 guns legally, as well as a company-size pile of ammo, with 17 guns being locked in a safe. The ammo and the Beretta pistol which the guy used, had not been locked away. He took about 100 rounds of ammo with him.

Well, that didn't take long. Only got to the second post...

You know what the counter to this argument is, so I won't bother.

For now I just feel bad for the victims and their surviving loved ones. The guy in Alabama was a former cop (shocker) who went after his former employers and his own family, calmly driving up to the front porch and shooting them all as they watched him walk up the driveway. One of the women he killed was related to one of the cops that was chasing him.

This kind of thing is unexpainable in terms of pet political issues. What makes somebody do this kind of thing? There's just nothing you can say about that. It's like the beginning of No Country for Old Men, when the Texas sheriff (Tommy Lee Jones) was talking about how he no longer understood modern crime, the thoughtlessness and pointlessness of it. You can explain murder for jealousy, or revenge, or greed, but this kind of thing defies that sort of cause-and-effect thinking. Even when they catch these guys alive they seem to have nothing to say that makes any sense about what they do.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,638
Reaction score
2,353
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
This kind of thing is unexpainable in terms of pet political issues. What makes somebody do this kind of thing? There's just nothing you can say about that. It's like the beginning of No Country for Old Men, when the Texas sheriff (Tommy Lee Jones) was talking about how he no longer understood modern crime, the thoughtlessness and pointlessness of it. You can explain murder for jealousy, or revenge, or greed, but this kind of thing defies that sort of cause-and-effect thinking. Even when they catch these guys alive they seem to have nothing to say that makes any sense about what they do.

No, I think the thing is only unexplainable, if you think in political correctness. Why are no women involved in killing sprees? I looked for it, but they don't seem to exist. You can find women in the coldest most rational murder, but in killing sprees, they don't appear.

So, the sex seems to have an important impact on the decision to go on a killing spree.

I had seen a presentation on killing sprees by a criminologist today, which describes the phases in the behavior of a spree killer, but I can't remember it correctly. The important pattern is how somebody maneuvers into the situation, where he can plan over months to commit this crime, without changing course. You don't hear about spree killers, which decided otherwise. Already months before the actual crime, the behavior of the person changes.

The reason which makes them commit this crime, might not make sense to you, especially not if you look at it with perfect vision from outside. But when you snap into the track to a spree killing, you don't consider all scientific rational evidence. You look not even at a subset of the reality. You will take assumptions for fact, and never question them again. The same logic you have behind moon hoaxers, is also giving people the idea, that only a spree killing is the way to go.

The question is, how to notice and influence the first phase: When the guy is not already sure on his path. The VT killer had been in the first phase for years, maybe even in the second phase - he already was impressed positively by the Columbine Massacre. He developed many symptoms of a paranoid schizophrenia in the following years.
 

Jarvitä

New member
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,030
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Serface, Earth
This kind of thing is unexpainable in terms of pet political issues.

And explaining it in terms of american popular culture is somehow more mature?

More firearms plus easily legally acquirable firearms equals more firearm violence. It takes an American, and an ignorant one at that, to not understand this simple fact.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,638
Reaction score
2,353
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
More firearms plus easily legally acquirable firearms equals more firearm violence. It takes an American, and an ignorant one at that, to not understand this simple fact.

Please stop the country bashing.

The legal question is: Would less firearms have changed this? How hard is it to illegally acquire a gun?

And Andy44 sure knows my counter-counterargument to his counterargument, so no need to bother.

Also, you will hardly find a country with more firearms per person than Switzerland. But it does not appear too prominent inside the statistics - in fact, it only has one spree killing at all in history.
 

Andy44

owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
Addon Developer
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
7,620
Reaction score
7
Points
113
Location
In the Mid-Atlantic states
And explaining it in terms of american popular culture is somehow more mature?

More firearms plus easily legally acquirable firearms equals more firearm violence. It takes an American, and an ignorant one at that, to not understand this simple fact.

Ad hominem attack. If you cannot converse in a civil manner, please do not converse.
 

Hielor

Defender of Truth
Donator
Beta Tester
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
5,580
Reaction score
2
Points
0
And explaining it in terms of american popular culture is somehow more mature?

More firearms plus easily legally acquirable firearms equals more firearm violence. It takes an American, and an ignorant one at that, to not understand this simple fact.

We have a saying here in "ignorant" America:
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.

The ironic thing is that as I understand it, America actually has a rather low crime rate per capita.
 

Scarecrow

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
272
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Location
USA
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
I agree. From what I understand (though I could easily be wrong on the fine points), this happened in Australia. Gun ownership was common, and then banned, so guns were widely available on the black market afterwords, but no law abiding citizens had a gun. This was a disaster, and crime sky-rocketed, like a loose SRB.

Also, Britain has had guns banned for a long time. Knife crime is common. You don't need guns to kill or intimidate, though they are effective.

The ironic thing is that as I understand it, America actually has a rather low crime rate per capita.
Interesting. I didn't know that.
 

tl8

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Tutorial Publisher
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
3,645
Reaction score
25
Points
88
Location
Gold Coast QLD
Just a general reminder that we are watching and there is zero tolerance on countryy bashing, personal attacks etc.
 

Bj

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
1,886
Reaction score
11
Points
0
Location
USA-WA
Website
www.orbiter-forum.com
More firearms plus easily legally acquirable firearms equals more firearm violence.

Interesting theory, first off thanks for giving me an idea for my Advanced Composition class paper,

second, I heard a story a few days ago, from one of my friends neighbors that this lady ( mid 70's ) heard and saw kids in her back yard trying to break an entry. The lady was the only one at home, but she grabbed her husbands shotgun. No ammo mind, and when she heard the glass break, she pumped it so it made the loud click-click. Those would-be thieves took off so fast they left most of their equipment behind.

Take a look at this link;
man-defends-self-against-4-armed-home-invaders

Now tell me, should we ban guns so that only thieves and killers are the ones carrying them? --or can we let regular average people carry guns to defend themselves against such attacks.

It takes an American, and an ignorant one at that, to not understand this simple fact.

does this mean that I am ignorant? :p
 

Ark

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Messages
2,200
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Guns are the tool he used, they aren't the cause. Drop a gun in front of a sane, normal person and he won't pick it up and start slaughtering people. The whole gun control thing is an unrelated side issue here, it doesn't really have anything to do with why this kid walked into a school and started killing people. IMO, if he didn't have access to daddy's guns, he would have found some other way.

Just going from first impressions of the article, I'll take a stab and say the guy had girl issues. He went to the school first and killed them first, so I'd say that was his primary goal and motivation, everything after that sounds pretty directionless. I think it's the same basic formula as Columbine and Virginia Tech: A kid or two develops some emotional issues, and then they sit and stew for a few years. Nobody notices and nobody asks questions until it finally boils over and some serious stuff goes down before the kid can grow out of it and work things out.

IMO, things like this are a group effort. If the teachers, administrators, students and parents were paying attention, it wouldn't happen.
 

tblaxland

O-F Administrator
Administrator
Addon Developer
Webmaster
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
7,320
Reaction score
25
Points
113
Location
Sydney, Australia
From what I understand (though I could easily be wrong on the fine points), this happened in Australia. Gun ownership was common, and then banned, so guns were widely available on the black market afterwords, but no law abiding citizens had a gun.
I hadn't noticed. Neither do the stats show it:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita
 

Hielor

Defender of Truth
Donator
Beta Tester
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
5,580
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Guns are the tool he used, they aren't the cause. Drop a gun in front of a sane, normal person and he won't pick it up and start slaughtering people. The whole gun control thing is an unrelated side issue here, it doesn't really have anything to do with why this kid walked into a school and started killing people. IMO, if he didn't have access to daddy's guns, he would have found some other way.

Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Make bullets illegal.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,638
Reaction score
2,353
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
second, I heard a story a few days ago, from one of my friends neighbors that this lady ( mid 70's ) heard and saw kids in her back yard trying to break an entry. The lady was the only one at home, but she grabbed her husbands shotgun. No ammo mind, and when she heard the glass break, she pumped it so it made the loud click-click. Those would-be thieves took off so fast they left most of their equipment behind.

Take a look at this link;
man-defends-self-against-4-armed-home-invaders

Now tell me: How many examples are out there, in which this strategy failed, for example the "defender" overestimating his chances? If you legally have a gun, any criminal can also legally have it. In Brazil, your defense theory results usually in even worse attacks: If you can't get the wealth as single attacker or unarmed, you form gangs and attack more aggressive. If you are lucky, you are more worth alive for the attackers, and just get kidnapped.

Eventually, the only protection of you will be forming bigger gangs of law-abiding citizens, who protect themselves. This is the concept behind citizen patrols and militia. If you have your gang specializing on fighting crime and finding convincing evidence for a judge, you have a police. Such concepts did not arrive suddenly because a god told a prophet to become the first policeman. They evolved over times and under the pressure of equally fast evolving crime.

As stupid, as total gun-control can be, total gun-freedom is. Freedom comes with responsibility.

Now tell me, should we ban guns so that only thieves and killers are the ones carrying them? --or can we let regular average people carry guns to defend themselves against such attacks.

Don't you think, that thieves and killers are also regular average people? At least, before they do their crimes? And how can you defend yourself? You and your gun can work against 4 kids, who just want to try it. But if you have a gang of 4 kids, who don't just want to try it, but expect you to be armed and possibly interfering, you can be lucky if you awake with the muzzle of a SMG in your face.

Also, forget the idea of "We need to be able to fight our government, if it becomes criminal." If the majority of the country fails to stop such developments with political weapons (from democracy, over law, over army, national guard and militias), you can only commit a honorable suicide that way.

Germany is a country with the strictest gun control laws in the world. It does not prevent such crimes. But what people found out and what they apply in the police tactics since Erfurt: The earlier you have policemen on the scene, risking their lives for protecting innocent, even without daily assault squad training, the earlier the killing will stop. This also applies to yesterday, though the strange behavior of the attacker fleeing when the police arrives shows some required improvements.
 

Ghostrider

Donator
Donator
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,606
Reaction score
2
Points
78
Location
Right behind you - don't look!
As stupid, as total gun-control can be, total gun-freedom is. Freedom comes with responsibility.

Good point and I'd like to take it one step further: freedom EQUALS responsabiliy. The free man is willing - wanting - to answer for his actions. He knows there are consequences for his acts, for which he has to pay in person. The slave does not, his master answers for him.

I'm against tight gun laws for the same reasons I'm against tight dog laws - althogh I've had bad experience with dog owners more than once - and for the same reasons I don't want to see movies, games or books being banned or the Internet regulated into TV 2.0. We must learn to live as adults, taking responsability for our action because only a good dose of self-discipline can bring real security. As long as we're treated as overgrown kids who must be watched over for their own safety, we'll only be as safe as the watchmen will allow us to be.

And then, who watches the watchmen? And don't start to blather about gluinos, Dr Manhattan...
 
Top