how to get Ls values for Mars using true anomaly angle values?

ncc1701d

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Does anyone know how to get Ls values for Mars using true anomaly angle values?
any formulas anyone knows of?
seems like there might be a realtionship between the two -Ls and True anomaliy angles- but not exactly sure.
I am entering new learning territory.

my assumptions at this point which may or may not be accurate. You can disagree

When true anomaly is 0 degrees Ls = 250

and when true anomaly is 180 degrees Ls = 70
if nothing else am i even on the right track?
thanks
 

Keithth G

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It isn't clear to me what 'Ls' means in this instance. Can you expand?
 
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ncc1701d

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thanks for asking.
Ls is solar Longitude
this was good link talking on it.
http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/time/solar_longitude.html

I dont know if when figuring true anomaly for mars orbit how similar it is to Ls.
Ls in that link diagram may be visually ignoring the inclination of the orbit of Mars because inclination is so small leading me off track. Iam just not sure

My goal is to find an Ls value for every true anomaly value using some formula.

Like given a True Anomoly of 20.4 degrees, what is the Ls value at the point in time?
 

Keithth G

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ncc1701d

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the first link didnt work. It says its Forbidden....You don't have permission to access etc
 

ncc1701d

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upon review of your statement

"It seems to me that if you know the true anomaly, then you also know the mean anomaly - so this should give you what you want."

that got me thinking
yes
I do actually know the mean anomaly and matching Ls, so if i know that i can run formula on just mean anomaly and get the matching true anomaly.
I think thats it unless you have something else to add
thanks
 

Keithth G

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This isn't relevant to ncc1701d's query, per se, but I note that NASA's calculation of Ls requires a series expansion of the true anomaly as a function of the mean anomaly. The series expansion in the first of these papers is only given to the fourth power in orbital eccentricity, 'e'. Out of interest, I thought I would extend that series expansion to higher order. And, for the record, here is the result (to 12th order in orbital eccentricity):

[MATH]\nu = M + \sum_{k=1}^{12}\alpha_k\,\sin(k\,M)[/MATH]
where

[MATH]\alpha_1 = 2 e-\frac{e^3}{4}+\frac{5 e^5}{96}+\frac{107 e^7}{4608}+\frac{6217 e^9}{368640}+\frac{565879 e^{11}}{44236800}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_2 = \frac{5 e^2}{4}-\frac{11 e^4}{24}+\frac{17 e^6}{192}+\frac{43 e^8}{5760}+\frac{677 e^{10}}{69120}+\frac{7237 e^{12}}{967680}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_3 = \frac{13 e^3}{12}-\frac{43 e^5}{64}+\frac{95 e^7}{512}-\frac{973 e^9}{61440}+\frac{19503 e^{11}}{2293760}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_4 = \frac{103 e^4}{96}-\frac{451 e^6}{480}+\frac{4123 e^8}{11520}-\frac{1619 e^{10}}{24192}+\frac{111929 e^{12}}{7741440}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_5 = \frac{1097 e^5}{960}-\frac{5957 e^7}{4608}+\frac{164921 e^9}{258048}-\frac{4305913 e^{11}}{24772608}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_6 = \frac{1223 e^6}{960}-\frac{7913 e^8}{4480}+\frac{7751 e^{10}}{7168}-\frac{82021 e^{12}}{215040}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_7 = \frac{47273 e^7}{32256}-\frac{1773271 e^9}{737280}+\frac{93521303 e^{11}}{53084160}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_8 = \frac{556403 e^8}{322560}-\frac{4745483 e^{10}}{1451520}+\frac{32431949 e^{12}}{11612160}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_9 = \frac{10661993 e^9}{5160960}-\frac{101836961 e^{11}}{22937600}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_{10} = \frac{7281587 e^{10}}{2903040}-\frac{76972457 e^{12}}{12773376}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_{11} = \frac{62929017101 e^{11}}{20437401600}[/MATH]
[MATH]\alpha_{12} = \frac{7218065 e^{12}}{1892352}[/MATH]
Lower order expansions can readily be obtained by truncating the terms at the required order. For example, the third order expansion is:

[MATH]\nu = M + \left(2 e-\frac{e^3}{4}\right)\,\sin(M) + \frac{5 e^2}{4}\,\sin(2\,M) + \frac{13 e^3}{12}\,\sin(3\,M)[/MATH]
 
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ncc1701d

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since i cant see that first pdf link you sent me can you clarify what
alpha represents by itself like in your example? what is the difference between α1 and αFMS ?

I was going to use
Ls = αFMS + (ν - M)
which I found here under step B-5
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/mars24/help/algorithm.html

and would you say that in step B-4 on that link that it is using a 5th order expansion?

If you have a comment on how what your showing me compares to what the link is saying in steps B-4 and B-2, B-5 I would be interested.
thanks
 
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Keithth G

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and would you say that in step B-4 on that link that it is using a 5th order expansion?

Let's do this systematically. Consider the 5th order expansion for the 'equation of centre':

[math] \nu - M = \alpha_1\,\sin(M)+\alpha_2\,\sin(2\,M)+\alpha_3\,\sin(3\,M)+\alpha_4\,\sin(4\,M)+\alpha_5\,\sin(5\,M) [/math]
where

[math] \alpha_1 = 2\,e-\frac{1}{4}\,e^3+\frac{5}{96}\,e^5 [/math]
[math] \alpha_2 = \frac{5}{4}\,e^2-\frac{11}{24}\,e^4 [/math]
[math] \alpha_3 = \frac{13}{12}\,e^3-\frac{43}{64}\,e^5 [/math]
[math] \alpha_4 = \frac{103}{96}\,e^4 [/math]
[math] \alpha_5 = \frac{1097}{960}\,e^5 [/math]
To calculate the coefficients of the expansion, we need to know [MATH]e[/MATH], Mars' orbital eccentricity. From http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...0000097895.pdf (the second of the two papers I listed earlier), we see that the orbital eccentricity is given as:

[MATH]e = 0.09340 + 2.477 \times 10^{-9}\,d^{-1}\,\Delta t_{J2000}[/MATH]
This basically is a numerical least-squares fit of a linear approximation of the orbital eccentricity to JPL's high precision ephemeris. The first term is the value of the orbital eccentricity at epoch J2000. The second term is a 'drift' term indicating that the Mars orbital eccentricity is not constant with time.

For a moment, let's forget about the drift component and just work with the 0.09340. If we plug this value into the above, we get:

[math] \alpha_1 = 0.186597 [/math]
[math] \alpha_2 = 0.0108696 [/math]
[math] \alpha_3 = 0.000877903 [/math]
[math] \alpha_4 = 0.0000816495 [/math]
[math] \alpha_5 = \text{8.122126994772126$\grave{ }$*${}^{\wedge}$-6} [/math]
But these values are expressed in radians whereas B4 expresses the coefficients in terms of degrees. So, to compare apples with apples we need to multiply all of the above coefficient values by [MATH]180/\pi[/MATH]. If we do this (and round after the 4th Decimal place, we get:

[math] \alpha_1 = 10.6912\,{}^{\circ} [/math]
[math] \alpha_2 = 0.6228\,{}^{\circ} [/math]
[math] \alpha_3 = 0.0503\,{}^{\circ} [/math]
[math] \alpha_4 = 0.0047\,{}^{\circ} [/math]
[math] \alpha_5 = 0.0005\,{}^{\circ} [/math]
So that the 5th order expansion for the 'equation of centre' becomes:

[math] \nu - M = 10.6912\,{}^{\circ}\,\sin(M)+0.6228\,{}^{\circ}\,\sin(2\,M)+ 0.0503\,{}^{\circ}\,\sin(3\,M)+0.0047\,{}^{\circ}\,\sin(4\,M)+0.0005\,{}^{\circ}\,\sin(5\,M) [/math]
Clearly, this is essentially the same as the values of B4 - although the consistency of some of the rounding used in that expression is a little dubious in my view.

But what about the 'drift term'? If, as per B4, we include the first order (in [MATH]\Delta t[/MATH]) term in the coefficient of [MATH]\sin(M)[/MATH], we find the that the better expression for [MATH]\alpha_1[/MATH] is:

[math] \alpha_1 = (10.6912 + 2.82918\times 10^{-7}\,\Delta t_{J2000})\,{}^{\circ} [/math]
And that, I think, explains the drift term in the coefficient of [MATH]\sin(M)[/MATH] appearing in B4.

So, yes, B4 is using a 5th order expansion.

Note, though that there is an additional 'PBS' term in B4. You might ask: what is this about? Well, if you go back to the source papers, it easy to see that the authors are using a simple mean orbital parameter model for the motion of Mars around the Sun. In practice, Mars' motion is more complicated than this - largely due to the combined influence of Jupiter and Saturn - and the 'PBS' term is an attempt to take into account the major perturbations of the 'equation of centre' induced by those planets.

If you have a comment on how what your showing me compares to what the link is saying in steps B-4 and B-2, B-5 I would be interested.

B2 calculates the 'fictitious mean sun' longitude.

B3 calculates the effect of major planetary perturbations on Mars' 'equation of centre'

B4 calculates the 'equation of centre' using (in the main) the 5th order expansion for the equation of centre and then adding the perturbation terms

B5 adds the fictitious mean longitude of the Sun to the equation of centre.
 
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ncc1701d

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great! thanks for that explanation.
concerning the "dubious rounding", at one point i emailed the scientist wrote that web link of mars24 comparing my math to his as i tryed to recreate his examples and noticed what turned out to be a rounding issue
He said it was rounded off using excell spreadsheet so maybe that effect is something your noticing.
 
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