Updates Mars Science Laboratory (Curiosity)

Aviator

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
40
Reaction score
0
Points
6
I'm sure if they had the skills to build that piece of machinery and lob it a few hundred million miles to another planet they didn't just stick any old instrument anywhere.

You can bet they had already thought of this and considered it an acceptable risk with information that we do not have.

Maby the gamble did not pay off with that isolated case but you can be sure there would be dozens of other systems just as vulnerable (you can't account for everything!) where it did.

This dual attitude armchair experts have is an odd one..

"They are amazing!"
"They are stupid! _CLEARLY_ they should have done this!"

I'm sure there is a very good reason for it being mounted as it was :thumbup:
 

Keatah

Active member
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
2,218
Reaction score
2
Points
38
The reasons it was mounted the way it was mounted is twofold:
1- height above the surface. Midway up the mast sounds reasonable.
2- angle, the position/angle was chosen to allow the mast to fold against the deck, and still allow the sensors to be spaced 90` apart.
These are valid logical choices; and while the location helped instigate the failure, it could have easily happened if REMS booms were put on the back near the RTG.

Furthermore, this is a next generation sensor designed with a lot of consumer electronics philosophies behind it. Particularly the flex circuit type of wiring so common in cellphones and portable electronics. Well I got news for you. That type of wiring works fine in enclosed spaces. Ever see an image sensor in a digital camera? Look at the flex cable and the wirebonded wires inside the sensor. You just don't expose that stuff to rocket blasts and alien atmospheres.. You just don't.

You can bet the next rovers that are to be landed by a skycrane will either be done so with a longer bridle or have more of their wires internal to the body.

When I first complained about this I suggested that a metal flap (doorlike) be hung over the sensors, almost like a thin piece of armor. And when the mast was raised a release pin would pull out and the plate would swing out of the way by gravity, or assisted by a spring.

They protected the cameras nicely but totally "forgot" to do it to REMS parts which are even more delicate. Probably cost-cutting. A tragedy no doubt.
 
Last edited:

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,774
Reaction score
2,535
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
What annoys me most: Keatah already knows that rocks kicked up by the landing damaged the sensor, but that is just one possibility now. And he knows what is the best for laying the cable for REMS, without even bothering to ask, what is inside the mast now. Or that such a cable must fail when 5 mm pebbles hit it. And it is sure bad that the ASIC with the sensor surfaces is exposed to the medium that it should measure undisturbed.

It is all sloppy work in the eyes of somebody who does a sloppy analysis.
 

Artlav

Aperiodic traveller
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
5,791
Reaction score
782
Points
203
Location
Earth
Website
orbides.org
Preferred Pronouns
she/her
The thing made it there in a rude goldberg chain of launch and landing, hundreds of parts and systems works nicely, and ONE sensor got botched. So, mission failure?

That reminds me of an old anecdote of a rich man throwing away a $2M car and buying a new one, just because the ashtray have filled up.
 

Keatah

Active member
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
2,218
Reaction score
2
Points
38
The sensor's responsiveness to different windspeeds would be less if there was a grating or screen over it. So it should have been protected until ready for use. OR, a less sophisticated but inherently more durable sensor could have been utilized. But then progress stagnates.

I digress, empty out the ashtray, re-work your science program. The mission goes on..
 
Last edited:

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,774
Reaction score
2,535
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
The sensor's responsiveness to different windspeeds would be less if there was a grating or screen over it. So it should have been protected until ready for use. OR, a less sophisticated but inherently more durable sensor could have been utilized. But then progress stagnates.

Jettisoning the shielding after a few million kilometers of travel (and not earlier or never) takes a lot of equipment that has to work and that costs mass.

Also the system of two pitot tubes at a spot where undisturbed wind can reach them is hardly sophisticated (No moving parts, that might fail because of dust and loss of lubrication).
 
Last edited:

edsupagood

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
135
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Panorama of the tracks

Full Resolution 9543x2396:

 

Screamer7

Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
474
Reaction score
20
Points
18
Location
Virginia FS
That part of the photo right above th UHF transmitter looks blurry.
It looks like an rolling dust storm is approaching Curiosity.:lol:
 

Keatah

Active member
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
2,218
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Jettisoning the shielding after a few million kilometers of travel (and not earlier or never) takes a lot of equipment that has to work and that costs mass.

Sometimes that is what is required to protect your tools and experiments during transit. You can bet the next mission (whatever it may be), will take this into consideration.

Also the system of two pitot tubes at a spot where undisturbed wind can reach them is hardly sophisticated (No moving parts, that might fail because of dust and loss of lubrication).

Correct, pitot-tubes and pressure sensors used on Earth based aircraft are hardly sophisticated devices in their own right. Highly refined, sure. And as you say, simple principles are at work in them. Except that MSL's REMS booms are not pitot tubes. They do not work like tubes. Measurement does not take place in the holes like for an airspeed indicator. If you take the time to read the REMS paper you will quickly discover how this instrument really works. And note that the air movement near and around the mast is far from being undisturbed. It is precisely because of the mast-mounting restriction that two booms were required. And a selection algorithm picks which one would be used for data based on what kind of turbulent flow is being recorded and the last known wind gust.

The holes in the pitot-like structure of REMS have nothing to do with how Earth based aircraft work. They are there to allow tool insertion during mfg, and to shape the "shockwave" of air flow allowing for better measurement characteristics on the 4-dice quads. Especially at low incidence (or head-on) pointing into the wind measurements. All measurement happens outside the tube.

In previous missions, they'd just take one of these booms and stick them up in the air. Not so here. And because of the mast mount, we've got to deal with a whole bunch of CFD algorithms that now need to be re-written, again, because of sensor loss.

The "sophistication" I was referring to in this context needs to extend to the flex circuitry. This is the exact same type of technology used in your iPod and iPhone and all digital cameras and printers..

Flex circuitry is well known for being lightweight and of course its flexibility and g-shock resistance. Additionally it has the ability to be shaped and contoured to fit in seemingly impossible spaces and snaked through all sorts of shapes and assemblies. All the while carrying components and wires. It is not known for resistance against flying object impacts however. Absolutely not.

Initially flex circuits were used as connectivity-only options. Like a simple ribbon cable. They tried using these in consumer printer cables, but found they were damaged too easily. Eventually they evolved into a PCB replacement; having components mounted to them. This all well and good. And this stuff is especially lightweight! And it lets you fit circuitry in the most oddly shaped packages like a DSLR body. Try taking one apart to see what I mean.

IMHO, the easiest solution would have been to build a thin sheath around all of this (brown flex circuit) and have little cutouts for the measurement dice and whatever else need be exposed. This sheath could have been as simple as a few turns of Kapton tape rolled around everything but the dice and ambient point. A metal shield would also work of course. The sensors could have been made to protrude above the surface. And, better yet, the surface textured and perhaps incorporating micro vortex generators for better conduction.

The design goal of the complete REMS experiment was to have all the sensors and processing electronics come to be 1.5kg, and it topped out at 1.2kg. So plenty of leeway still left.

Note: While these look like pitot tubes, and have holes in them, this is not how it works. It works by measuring how much energy it takes to keep the "sensor" at 100C for example. The more wind, the more the sensors want to cool off. So more energy is needed to maintain 100C. And measuring the energy needed to maintain 100C allows us to compute windspeed. 12 of these sensors in conjunction with 3 reference sensors (15 per boom) lets us get a good 360 degree view of the local wind conditions.

The four-dice concept and thermal anemometry is nothing really new. You've got 3 sets of 4 points spaced 120 degrees apart. And a reference point, 3 points spaced also 120 degrees apart. See the second boom in the pic below. With the dice sets spaced 120 degrees apart you can get all sorts of readings and angle of attack and incidence measurements, in 3-D too.

These 15 (x2 booms) points need to be exposed to the Martian atmosphere for reliable hot-film anemometry. And that's just fine.

With the loss of 15 out of 30 points, this will need a redo of the CFD, especially to work around the mast turbulence.

With shielding in place, only the quads and ambient points would be exposed. And with good redundancy built in (no reason not to these days), a shower of debris might have killed only 2 or 3 points. But to lose half of your experiment, that's gotta suck royally for the principle investigator.

Personally, I don't think anyone expected that much debris and gravel to be thrown up. In the haste to get Skycrane all "qualified" and working this debris-blasting got underestimated. I'm sure. It surprised the hell out of me at first. But it didn't and wouldn't have changed my initial letter a few years back about better protecting the flex circuit.

Read section 4.8 of this to get a more detailed idea how this all works. And see Fig. 19 to better understand the amount of stuff that was left unprotected.




[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flex_circuit[/ame]
http://www.exploremars.org/msl-picture-of-the-day-t-26-days-instruments-rems
REMS.png
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,774
Reaction score
2,535
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Actually, what you describe is no velocity measurement, but an mass flow measurement. Described like that on the spanish REMS homepage.

The very same technology sits in every car since about 1985. But it does not measure air velocity, this can be calculated by dividing mass flow by density.

Also, 300g less than maximal possible does not automatically mean, the instrument could have been 300g heavier now. Often the 300g saved in one place are needed to compensate what other components exceed.

And protecting REMS with just 300g budget available could have been a pretty challenge.
 

icedown

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
115
Reaction score
0
Points
0
One thing that has always surprised me about images from mars is that they don't look as alien(For lack of a better word) as I thought they might. I guess I expected different colors or formations. But then again, without all the geological processes that require water, it would be kind of limited on what it could look like.
 

N_Molson

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
9,303
Reaction score
3,278
Points
203
Location
Toulouse
One thing that has always surprised me about images from mars is that they don't look as alien

And still it is a very alien world. The incident with the stones severing a sensor cable remind it. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have happened on Earth, where gravity would have prevented the rocks flying that high and fast.

With 0.376 G, you would feel "light" even with a 120 kg EVA suit. If your mass is 80kg, it makes a total of 200kg (which probably pin you on the ground on Earth) ; but on Mars, even with the suit, your weight is only 75 kg. So it's almost like you have no suit (except the mobility constraints). Isn't that cool. :cool: Actually, it might be easier to walk on Mars than on the Moon (better stability).

And another cool thing, is that when you read "NASA successfuly landed a 1-ton rover on Mars", that's very relative. On the surface, it is only 376 kgs. Which sure helps the thing to roll on those rocky slopes.
 

Screamer7

Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
474
Reaction score
20
Points
18
Location
Virginia FS
That image is the best I've ever saw of Mars.
The atmosphere appeared to look dusty.
Yes, it look very Earth like, so much so, that when I look at the image, my 8 year old twin sons argue with each other what place that could be on Earth.
When I told them it was Mars, they could not believe it!:)
 

Quick_Nick

Passed the Turing Test
Donator
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
4,088
Reaction score
204
Points
103
Location
Tucson, AZ
One thing that has always surprised me about images from mars is that they don't look as alien(For lack of a better word) as I thought they might. I guess I expected different colors or formations. But then again, without all the geological processes that require water, it would be kind of limited on what it could look like.

It got a lot less alien when I diabled f.lux :lol:
 
Top