Naming Convention for Planets. What do you think?

[Deltafang]

First, I'd like to say hey to everyone as this is my first post and I hope I'll be posting much more. Probably even more after I get Windows installed on a partition on my Macbook. >_>;

Now, on to the issue.

I know the planets in our own solar system are named in Greco-Roman fashion, with the Romans using their own names for the Greek gods as the names for planets. At least we know where they came from.
We also know that if we were to leave our own solar system eventually, we'd refer to our system as the Sol System. Some already refer to it as such.

If we were to take the time and trouble to travel to a different solar system(e.g. Alpha Centuari, 55 Cancri, Tau Ceti, Gliese 581 or 876), don't you think we'd start a different naming convention rather than continue to call them by their catalogue names? I mean, for all sakes and purposes their catalogue names are practical. But I think we'd actually give the star and its planets names because of the our more personal level of dealing with them.

What would we name these stars and planets? Would we use the names of gods from religions long past or would we create a different sort of naming convention?

On a side note, after watching Avatar I've been itching to write a hard sci-fi story about a trip to a nearby star system (humanity's fourth actually). I think 2154 is a bit optimistic and the convergent evolution is about as impossible as geocentrism, but I want to try a hand at realistic alien biologies.

The naming convention frustrates me endlessly as nothing seems suitable for the planets and their moons and the sun itself if I decide to name it. (The system is Gliese 581 and I happened to take creative license and add a fifth planet: a jovian that I don't know whether to make a gas giant or an ice giant.)

While my programming skills are minimal, I'm pretty good at backwards engineering most programs to fit my needs and my ultimate plan for Orbiter includes making this solar system a reality and then eventually visiting it and its planets and moons.

Thank you all for helping and I look forward to working with you!

 

[SiberianTiger]

Probably, asking the locals of how do they call their own star and planets is the way to go. It might result, however, in an inadvertent naming a planet in our universal catalogue by a word that is properly translated as "HUMAN DEVILS GO HOME!" :lol:

 

[Deltafang]

Probably, asking the locals of how do they call their own star and planets is the way to go. It might result, however, in an inadvertent naming a planet in our universal catalogue by a word that is properly translated as "HUMAN DEVILS GO HOME!" :lol:

Haha! Kind of like the myth with how kangaroos were named, right?

Well, in my story we've visited three systems already. Alpha Centuari AB, Epsilon Eridrani, and Tau Ceti. Gilese 581 being the target for the fourth expedition. No life yet, but we're still looking.

My point is that we already spent time getting getting acquainted with and actually going to these solar systems. While they might not be as intimate with us as our own planets, for some reason I think we'd bother with giving them proper names instead of just star catalogue names. I think a universal catalogue for planets would be great, but we should only use it for planets we've seen with our telescopes or actually visited.

By the time we're capable of interstellar flight, I think our telescopes will have been powerful enough to direct image a planet to the point where we can see actually see its atmosphere and/or facial features. Probably decades to centuries prior. We'd probably name them based on physical or chemical characteristics. What the hell do you name a planet anyway?

 

[SiberianTiger]

Speaking seriously, I believe that you have a right to name the star and its planets just what you want. It's done science fiction writers over and over - they name planets giving them various impressive (or ridiculous) names. When there is no rational reason behind a particular naming, why should be a problem? The universe is endless, and sooner or later we'll run out of proper names for everything (but we might develop new languages along the road, which could help solving the problem...)

Considering that your version of future mankind has only visited 4 other star systems, they might not yet have run of gods... I can suggest picking one of the many polytheistic pantheons which existed or exist on Earth and giving the star the name of the most powerful god and name the planets with lesser gods' names.

Or you can begin with speculating around the fact that Gliese 581 is in Libra constellation... Maybe this may get you somewhere.

 

[Ghostrider]

What the hell do you name a planet anyway?

Bob.

 

[Deltafang]

Considering that your version of future mankind has only visited 4 other star systems, they might not yet have run of gods... I can suggest picking one of the many polytheistic pantheons which existed or exist on Earth and giving the star the name of the most powerful god and name the planets with lesser gods' names.

Or you can begin with speculating around the fact that Gliese 581 is in Libra constellation... Maybe this may get you somewhere.

Yeah, there should be plenty of pantheons left. Being in the Libra constellation is of note, but I'm not sure where that leads me.

I'll spend the day looking through pantheons. I'll post my findings later, probably in an off topic...topic.

 

[Artlav]

First, Second, Tria, Penta, Hexa, Septa, Planet 7, Bluemen planet, Crashlander moon, WTF-4 asteroid, etc. We'll see when we get there.

 

[Deltafang]

First, Second, Tria, Penta, Hexa, Septa, Planet 7, Bluemen planet, Crashlander moon, WTF-4 asteroid, etc. We'll see when we get there.

All interesting suggestions. WTF asteroid is hilarious I think. I believe we will see when we get there, I just hope we don't keep them by their star catalogue names.

Halo or something has names like Threshold and Reach and I'm all like "ick":thumbsdown:

I think we couldn't go wrong naming them based on mythological creatures I suppose. With well known creatures for the planets and lesser knowns for the moons.

 

[TMac3000]

If we were to take the time and trouble to travel to a different solar system(e.g. Alpha Centuari, 55 Cancri, Tau Ceti, Gliese 581 or 876), don't you think we'd start a different naming convention rather than continue to call them by their catalogue names? I mean, for all sakes and purposes their catalogue names are practical. But I think we'd actually give the star and its planets names because of the our more personal level of dealing with them.

Only the ones with the same name but different numbers (Gleise, Ross, etc.) For the others, it doesn't sound so bad to me to call them 55 Cancri, Alpha Centauri and so on.

 

[sunshine135]

Just think, to some alien, our sun is Nisflurbamix, and we all live on Nisflurbamix 3. Then you could argue, whose Galactic Catalog is correct? Even amongst our own astronomers, there are a couple of major catalogs- Messier, Bayer, and the computer catalogs maintained by the IAU that overlap names on some objects.

I would not be too terribly hung up on naming conventions. You're an author, so creative license can be used here too.

 

[MikeB]

more after I get Windows installed on a partition on my Macbook.

Welcome. I run Orbiter on Windows XP SP3 in a 5GB BootCamp partition on my MacBook Pro. I keep all of the Orbiter folders with various configurations on an external drive connected by USB. Works great. Have fun.

 

[T.Neo]

I think some naming convention other then the alphabetic one currently used (b for first planet, c for second, etc, and get extremely confused when a planet gets found between those two...) is needed for at least extrasolar planets of scientific interest.

I think figures in ancient mythology would be ideal, provided you still have ones that haven't had a planet named after them. Perhaps locations used in ancient mythology instead?

Failing that, perhaps some sort of latin naming convention, as is used for taxonomy of living things. Or reuse (!) of (mostly minor) names in our own solar system. I mean, if a town can have the same name as a town in another country (or state/province), why can't a planet have the same name as a planet in another solar system?

Or you could go with naming the planets like asteroids. The discoverers choose the name, as long as it isn't too outlandish etc. It would probably have to be stricter then asteroid naming as well- you wouldn't want any planets named James Bond.

In any case, it would probably be a fitting name for the particular planet, and not anything like the multitude of bland and ridiculous names presented in science fiction.

I wouldn't go for naming stars though, unless the star had a really inconvenient number-filled name (HD 28185, for example). Gliese 581 is on the threshold of this, IMO. It wouldn't even have to be a specific special name, just one easier to remember and use.

the convergent evolution is about as impossible as geocentrism, but I want to try a hand at realistic alien biologies.

Convergent evolution is a very real principle (just look at icthyosaurs and cetaceans for example). However, I agree that the blue cat-people are not at all a plausible representation of extraterrestrial life. It could be evolutionarily convergent, however- lungs, limbs, even fur could certainly evolve elsewhere.


I've done an addon on the Gliese 581 system, so if you want any data, reccomendations or texture files, please let me know.

 

[SiberianTiger]

The existing international treaty about naming celestial objects and their features in Solar system forbids only naming them after political or religious figures and people involved in military conflicts.

 

[T.Neo]

Even if that is so, the convention is usually to name major bodies after figures in ancient mythology.

Another thing I suppose is that if there are natives there, their name for the planet/moon should be used. Unless you want to go all colonial.

 

[Deltafang]

Convergent evolution is a very real principle (just look at icthyosaurs and cetaceans for example). However, I agree that the blue cat-people are not at all a plausible representation of extraterrestrial life. It could be evolutionarily convergent, however- lungs, limbs, even fur could certainly evolve elsewhere.


I've done an addon on the Gliese 581 system, so if you want any data, reccomendations or texture files, please let me know.

Yeah, convergent evolution is really neat and we're bound to find at least some similarities in other life. Avatar was great in terms of the ISV and Valkyries but the convergent evolution factor on the Na'vi always gets me.

While complex animals might not evolve convergently, I think simple plant life would be much more believeable. I also think that 'planimals' might be alot more common than they are on Earth.

I was thinking of having some kind of quadrupedal life form with wide tipped black fur that's capable of bristling for photosynthesis and laying flat otherwise. (I read somewhere that red dwarf star plants would be black due to the amount of visible light emitted by it.) The habitable zone is also vulnerable to flares and even though there's not a lot of evidence that Gliese 581 is particularly variable, a lot of red dwarf stars are. On a world that's about 90% water, I'd imagine that most of the life would be aquatic and be able to venture deep enough to avoid most of the harmful rays. They would probably have a way of detecting these before they even start. So multiple eyes or some other sensory organ that can see across a broad wavelength might also be a good idea. I'm not sure I want to make them sentient though. It'd be nice if they could tell us what they call their own system, but a sapient species adds alot of complication, including how they would communicate with us. Wouldn't it be funny if there was a creature that communicated through some kind of radio waves? They might have received our message sent to them as direct communication but probably brushed it off as mass hallucination.

I'm wondering whether or not this is a Super-Earth or the Earth-sized moon of a gas giant though. What about an ice giant? Could such a moon even survive around an one? Its all very interesting.

Oh, you've done a Gliese 581 add-on already? I'll be sure to ask for the full data when I get Orbiter up and running. (At college and windows start-up disk is at home with my family). In the meantime, what colors and textures did you use? If you could take pictures of the system I'd be incredibly grateful.

Thanks for all the help guys! Its very much appreciated.

 

[Artlav]

How can we expect even what is plausible and what is not, not having a slightest idea what life is, much less what is intelligence?
For what we know, there can be anything on distant stars, from life made out of distinctly different chemistry and concepts to pretty much the same humans we have here.
Life could have evolved on two stars from the same set of bacterias, blasted into space from another world.

We can even be someone's idea of Von Neuman machines, to transform, explore, or quite likely - destroy a galaxy. Machines, that settle on planets, adapt to it's environment, build up, and eventually blow the solar systems up by accident, spreading bacterias they are made of to other worlds.
If so, we see aggressive humanoids on nearby stars, aiming RKKV's at us.

Or, they could be a ball of intelligent plasma orbiting a star.

 

[Deltafang]

How can we expect even what is plausible and what is not, not having a slightest idea what life is, much less what is intelligence?
For what we know, there can be anything on distant stars, from life made out of distinctly different chemistry and concepts to pretty much the same humans we have here.
Life could have evolved on two stars from the same set of bacterias, blasted into space from another world.

Yeah, I know. Its hard to expect life or even intelligence to even follow rules that we make up but its all we can do to scramble our brains and pace holes in our floors until we can actually find them. I mean, things like the fact that a planet orbits close to its star might give rise to life because of the nearby energy source. Once life starts from that, it'd be hard to imagine it totally moving away from it. Even though some life has here on our planet.

Or, they could be a ball of intelligent plasma orbiting a star.

Ah, sounds like the book Star Dragon by Mike Brotherton. Read that recently myself.

 

[T.Neo]

Avatar seems to have a far amount of "hard" sci-fi elements. Although since I haven't seen the film perhaps it would be best for me to shut up.

While "planimals" are a possibility, "plants" and "animals" are restricted to Earth in the technical sense. Alien kingdoms of life could have primarily traits of animals, plants or fungi however. Or totally alien traits. It's quite possible that planets are filled with many forms of complex life, but such life is either sessile or semi-sessile and primitive (Such a world would be rather boring, however, unless you had some time-lapse cameras).

Evidence suggests that Gliese 581d actually has no land at all, due to it's large size and possible origin beyond the "frost line" of it's system. So it would likely have a worldwide ocean hundreds of kilometers deep, with some interesting forms of pressure-induced water ice at the bottom.

Providing that nutrients could somehow reach the euphotic zone, there could be some life. It might be rather sparse though; biodiversity would be low.

I suppose "solid" "ground" could exist in the form of ice packs or bergs (perhaps possible at the poles, especially during winter) or rafts of colonial organisms.

The atmosphere would also be pretty thick, so flying organisms could easily evolve from swimming pelagic ones.

The high eccentricity of the planet would also result in pronounced seasons. The rotation would probably be similar to Mercury, and calculations done by RisingFury apparently show that 581d could be tidelocked (although I somewhat doubt it due to the eccentricity).

581d could indeed be an ice giant, since the detection method used only gives the minimum mass and the real mass could be far higher.

A moon of an ice-giant 581d might be a possibility, although I doubt that a large enough moon would be able to form around it.

Perhaps 581d is a double planet subsystem, like Pluto-Charon. Might be possible as long as the tides from the star and the history of the planet allow it.

As for my Gliese 581 addon, clockwise from top left:

Gliese 581e, shown as a barren and volcanic super Earth.

Gliese 581b, shown as a cloudless class III Neptunian planet.

Gliese 581c, shown as a sulphur cloud swathed super Earth, with a climate similar to Venus.

Gliese 581d, shown as a habitable ocean planet.

 

[Linguofreak]

If we were to take the time and trouble to travel to a different solar system(e.g. Alpha Centuari, 55 Cancri, Tau Ceti, Gliese 581 or 876), don't you think we'd start a different naming convention rather than continue to call them by their catalogue names?

I'd think that stars best known by their Bayer designations probably would keep those as names, especially for the more well known stars like Alpha Centauri and Tau Ceti. The Bayer designations are a blend of Greek and Latin that sounds less like "Centaur A, Whale T, River E, Indian E, etc." to English speakers than it just sounds like a series of random names. Stars named by a catalog and a number might well get new names though.

I mean, for all sakes and purposes their catalogue names are practical. But I think we'd actually give the star and its planets names because of the our more personal level of dealing with them.

What would we name these stars and planets? Would we use the names of gods from religions long past or would we create a different sort of naming convention?

Until we ran out of dead, unique religions, we might. Live religions might cause controversy (for example, I'd be uncomfortable with a planet called Yahweh or Jesus, a Muslim would probably be uncomfortable with a planet called Allah). Then again, that can vary a great deal even within a given religion, and names from current religions might be assigned out of religious fervor ("Jesus" is a common name in Spanish speaking countries, the Spanish named an island Trinidad "Trinity", etc.). Also expect the names of places from history or mythology, such as "Shangri-La" (I've seen this used a few times in Sci-fi), "Elysium", "Asgard," or, for places nobody wants to visit "Sheol", "Tartaros", etc.

 

[T.Neo]

How can we expect even what is plausible and what is not, not having a slightest idea what life is, much less what is intelligence?

We have one datapoint, Earth. Do not disregard Earth in the study of life; we ARE aliens.

As for intelligence, it's all relative- a human is more intelligent then a cow, a flatworm more intelligent then a mushroom. But the basic classification for "intelligent life" is something that can form concepts and ideas, and live out of it's own sensory world.

For what we know, there can be anything on distant stars, from life made out of distinctly different chemistry and concepts to pretty much the same humans we have here.

While differing chemistry from that found on Earth is a possibility, such "alternative" chemistries such as silicon-based organisms or organisms using solvents other then water are less likely due to the unique properties of carbon and water, and their abundance in the universe.

As for humans evolving elsewhere, it's complete and utter rubbish. Our evolution took too many turns to be repeated elsewhere in the universe. Even on our own world, life radiated into a myriad of forms of which we are only one. And vertebrates are themselves limited to Earth; analagous organisms elsewhere will probably only be similar to vertebrates on a superficial level.

Life could have evolved on two stars from the same set of bacterias, blasted into space from another world.

Possible but unlikely, even if said stars are quite close to eachother.

We can even be someone's idea of Von Neuman machines, to transform, explore, or quite likely - destroy a galaxy. Machines, that settle on planets, adapt to it's environment, build up, and eventually blow the solar systems up by accident, spreading bacterias they are made of to other worlds.

Fun idea, but unless you provide any proof it will remain just that.

If so, we see aggressive humanoids on nearby stars, aiming RKKV's at us.

For the last time in the study of life; NO OTHER HUMANOIDS.

Or, they could be a ball of intelligent plasma orbiting a star.

Again, possible but unlikely. Again only a fun idea unless you can provide a model based on evidence that would explain how such an organism would work.