News Severe high-speed train accident in Spain

[Urwumpe]

A high-speed train derailed in a curve in Santiago de Compostela. It was a Alves type multi-gauge train, with 250 km/h top speed, not the fastest high-speed train in spain. Currently there are 77 deaths and 143 injuries.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/zugu...a-dutzende-tote-viele-verletzte-a-912977.html

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_de_Compostela_derailment"]Santiago de Compostela derailment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Zatnikitelman]

Well, if the reports are true that it was going twice the authorized speed, that would do it. Their signaling systems seems to only enforce signal speeds and not track speeds on this stretch. This is more than most current signaling systems around the world actually enforce, which is nothing. What's interesting to me is the crash performance of the Talgo vehicles, namely how dismal it seems. The United States only has one route with Talgo trainsets: Amtrak Cascades between Portland, Oregon, and Seattle, Washington (and a bit off of each end of the route). In order to satisfy Federal Railroad Administration crashworthiness standards, a "normal" American vehicle is required at each end, either a locomotive, or a control car known affectionately as cabbages (cab-baggage), which themselves used to be locomotives (the iconic F40PH) but have had their engines removed. However, Oregon just recently ordered new Talgo trainsets to be used on the route with their own, attached cab cars. It has been rumored however that the FRA would still require a standard equipment "buffer" vehicle at the cab end. While this crash is different than what the FRA is aiming to protect against with this rumored requirement, I'm now wondering if it isn't actually a good idea.

 

[MattBaker]

I'm wondering how hard it would be to 'enforce' a speed limit on railroads which would have prevented this accident.

Couldn't overhead lines check the train's speed all the time? If they're existing, not every track...I already see why this doesn't really work. Probably would need too much infrastructure which would need money and money? Hell no!

 

[garyw]

In the UK several checks are carried out each time the train passes a signal. The train and the signal 'talk' to each other and things like the status of the signal, the speed and a few other things are exchanged.

If any one parameter doesn't fit the train is 'tripped' and brought to a stop. This is a great idea until one of the boxes crashes or throws a fit, when that happens the train will be tripped no matter what as it's a fail safe set up.

I was once on a train that got tripped three times because of excessive speed even though we were doing less than 10mph. Each time the train was tripped it took a minute or so to be reset and the driver had to get permission to continue and log the incident. As you can imagine, this caused quite a delay for my train and several others but I'd prefer that to the consequences of going through a red or going too fast.

 

[goaowonk]

Last night I couldn't see the news, and now I'm reading the newspapers. First thing I have to say is that it's strange such velocities at only 6 km from destiny. Here are what main Spanish press say:

El Pais says that it was at 200 km/h when it should be at 80, running then at the old train tracks built when Franco was alive, which is not included in ERTMS but does have ASFA for auto-breaking when velocity is above than allowed.

El mundo says that terrorism is discarded and adds that the curve was calificated as 'hard' by Fomento (ministery in charge of infraestructures) since inauguration.

And ABC relates it chronolgically and insists on discarding terrorist act.

There's also insufficient blood at the hospitals and a public call for donating. Terrible accident.

EDIT: And I cannot believe that Galicia's president (Feijoo) was so early there only for the photos :facepalm:

 

[boogabooga]

It's been a terrible month for transportation accidents. The exploding tankers in Canada, the San Francisco crash, and now this.

I'm wondering how hard it would be to 'enforce' a speed limit on railroads which would have prevented this accident.

Couldn't overhead lines check the train's speed all the time? If they're existing, not every track...I already see why this doesn't really work. Probably would need too much infrastructure which would need money and money? Hell no!

Or just a GPS receiver, that beeps and tells the operator that they are going to be reported. Even parents have such a thing for their young driving children. But perhaps this was intentional speeding to try to make up time.

 

[Urwumpe]

Or just a GPS receiver, that beeps and tells the operator that they are going to be reported. Even parents have such a thing for their young driving children. But perhaps this was intentional speeding to try to make up time.

Most rail control systems are from pre-GPS times and also have to function in tunnels or between noise protection walls or below numbers of overhead power lines. It isn't that easy, though a GPS based solution would be at least a good fall-back solution should the better control system fail.

Also, the signalling is rather simple without such control systems: Lights. Two green lights = Full track speed allowed. Sometimes you have additional lights for setting dynamic speed limits, at least in Germany. Not sure about spain there.

For highspeed trains, you usually have an additional system in the cab that looks further ahead than the driver can see and displays the signals ahead and the speed limits that are communicated.

But often, the speed limit is like in the past, just a checklist with a table of speed limits for the driver to follow.

 

[goaowonk]

A friend of mine explained me that train signaling is very outdated here. Also said something about UK`s, but I cannot remember.

The same happened in Valencia`s Metro in 2006, 2008 or 2009 (cannot remember the year also), and is still at the trials.

Sent from my Deltaglider using Potatolk.

 

[N_Molson]

Raises a lot of questions. That part of the track was well-known for being dangerous, a tight curve right before the station, and after a long straight section. You don't approach a train station at 190 km/h anyway. So, something failed in a very nasty way, I can't believe to an human error only. My thoughts to the victims and let's see what the inquiry will say.

It's been a terrible month for transportation accidents. The exploding tankers in Canada, the San Francisco crash, and now this.

We also had a rare train accident in France, near Paris. Investigation is going on. What is feared is that some people intentionally sabotaged the track to derail the train and loot the victims and rescue teams in the confusion (some thefts of mobile phones and luggages have been reported, firemen have been welcomed with ballast stones, etc...).

 

[goaowonk]

A youtube video caught from a maintenance camera tells something different than the official version (derail started at the last wagons): looks like something happened to the link between first and locomotive.

Now media says that there are at least 78 victims. Worst accident here in 40 years.

Ok, I won't say anything more until black boxes are recovered and tell what really happened. But I'm 'praying' for that the politicians don't hide evidences as they did with [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_Metro_derailment"]Valencia accident in 2006[/ame]. Yes, corruption here is everywhere.

IIRC, the comparization between UK's and Spain's railway speed limit signalling that friend of mine commented me was that one of them was fully automatic (according to garyw's post, that's UK's), and the other one just warns the driver but needs him to manually brake. That's a very circumstantial comment, I don't know how valid it is in this case.

 

[fort]

IIRC, the comparization between UK's and Spain's railway speed limit signalling that friend of mine commented me was that one of them was fully automatic (according to garyw's post, that's UK's)...

As it seems to be in France too.

 

[ale131296]

I saw the news and there are a lot of people telling their own stories. The people of the town near Compostela (where the train has crashed) says that they were helping people in the train and they were keeping them alive giving them water, food...etc.

The official cause that the Goverment suppose it's a over speed of the train. Nobody knows the official confirmed cause because they're investigating the cause but the pilot of the train says that it was a problem of over speed. It was running at 180km/h in a space where the train have to run at 80km/h. The train has broken into two pieces. Some parts of the train have flown some mtrs above a bridge near the zone of the accident. The train was in perfect conditions it has passed a security inspection yesterday morning and the train wasn't damaged or something like that... More info if you want direct news from here, Spain. Thanks for your interest.

 

[garyw]

IIRC, the comparization between UK's and Spain's railway speed limit signalling that friend of mine commented me was that one of them was fully automatic (according to garyw's post, that's UK's), and the other one just warns the driver but needs him to manually brake. That's a very circumstantial comment, I don't know how valid it is in this case.

I'm not sure if the UK's is fully automatic but I know that after the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladbroke_Grove_rail_crash"]Ladbrooke Grove crash[/ame] certain legal requirements were put into place for stopping trains that passed red signals. In the UK this is called a 'SPAD' (Signal Passed at Danger) as well as for speeding.

 

[ale131296]

Here in Spain there's an automatic system which stops the train when the train over passes the speed limit but in the case of this train it hadn't any system like this... I don't know why but If it have had that system...this tragedy wouldn't have happened...

 

[STS]

The train was a Alvia (not Alves) from Madrid Chamartin to Ferrol, passing near Santiago in the route to Ferrol.

This train can change from the "normal" railways to the new high speed railways that will be used for the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE"]AVE[/ame] . The AVE is not yet being driven throw this railways, but the Alvia can do it.

 

[goaowonk]

Here in Spain there's an automatic system which stops the train when the train over passes the speed limit but in the case of this train it hadn't any system like this... I don't know why but If it have had that system...this tragedy wouldn't have happened...

Yes and no. Such system is not fully implemented (IIRC), and that train didn't have it.

 

[Quick_Nick]

Video of the incident if anyone is interested:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...-train-crash-in-spain-at-least-77-killed?lite
It looks like the front car fared far better than most of the rest by staying on the track a bit longer. (I was wondering how the operator survived)
I can't say if that is 120mph but it is blatantly faster than that turn could be made.

 

[ale131296]

Yes and no. Such system is not fully implemented (IIRC), and that train didn't have it.

It's not fully implemented but I wanted to say them that a system like there's in other countries exist but not in that train. Most of AVE trains have it. The AVE train Sevilla-Madrid has it and I saw the news and they say that another 15 trains have it, but not this train...

 

[Urwumpe]

Video of the crash from EuroNews:

Clearly no terrorist attack, the train was simply too fast and derailed.

 

[ale131296]

Clearly no terrorist attack, the train was simply too fast and derailed.

Nobody says that it was a terrorist attack. All the people knew that it was a tipical train accident where the train goes off the rails...