Discussion The next 100 years..

RGClark

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Much of the pessimism I've seen here seems to stem from thinking that the mobs of uninterested people have a say in what happens. They don't. Most of our advancement, technological or otherwise, has resulted from the efforts of a small number of passionate, talented individuals. Everyone else is dragged along kicking and screaming.
Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX, has stated that his goal is going to Mars. Given their current rate of progress, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that happens in less than 15 years. (His goal is 10.) I'll let you do the Web searches to find what he's said. And if you don't know what his company has done already, I'm surprised you're even reading this.


Selden? An appropriate name for speculating on the future over the next 100 years. Or the next 10,000 ...


Bob Clark :)
 

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IMHO "spacefaring civilizations" are the playgrounds for sci-fi writers, nothing more. Like you say, we have everything we need here. I'm sure the same thing was said about the automobile. And the first computers. Why need more?

Well, as materials sciences and mass productions improved to a certain point (whatever it may be) these vehicles could be produced economically. And eventually whole town and city layouts were built around the car in the 40's 50's and 60's. And after those 30 years the trend continues today.

The jet transport in the 60's and 70's did little to change the layout of cities, just the size of airports. Air travel DID change the scope of international business. Not so much the physical layout of a company. But how the company behaved and what it did.

Now. Where would a spacecraft (as convenient as a car or jet transport) fit in? It doesn't! There's no place to go!

Maybe when you can build a real house with a real backyard on the moon, perhaps. But that will, again require significant advances in materials and energy storage capabilities.

Advances just like the automobile industry. Materials to build lightweight computers, engines, body parts. Things like that! I'm sure you couldn't build a Camry like today, say, 100 years ago. It wouldn't have the performance and range and comfort.

Today's spacecraft are like the Model-T, or more accurately, the first covered wagons, or even horse-pulled chariots. The common man didn't get any benefits of blasting around town like he does today.

It has always been materials and energy that allowed major changes in transportation. High temp and high strength metals allowed the jet turbine to be. And so airports and international business grew up around it.

Perhaps when we can build domes on the moon and personal craft that can make the journey in an afternoon. Things like that. That would make for spacefaring to become commonplace.

And why has this not happened yet? Materials an energy density problems as compared to the human scale.

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------

Humans will need to get rid of the tabloid entertainment mentality, pr0n, excessive eating, farting, over-sexing, pleasuring, greediness. All that needs to be toned down big-time.

The ones that have done that are called space tourism entrepreneurs and astronauts. Their clarity of thought is not chemically damaged by those activities. The rest of us are too distracted by that stuff to do anything productive toward making a spacefaring civilization.
 
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cymrych

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It's hard, when reading this thread, or discussing the stagnation that is politics, or contemplating the inherent shortcomings and pitfalls of capitalism, to not feel a great sense of disillusionment. A realization that we as a species, with our incredible capacity for ingenuity in the face of overwhelmingly long odds, are capable of truly amazing feats ... but are falling ludicrously short of our potential.

IMHO, TNeo is right on the money: spaceflight, particularly manned-spaceflight, will remain a fool's errand for the immediate future because there is no real economical advantage for it. For what it's worth, I believe there really is quite a bit of interest in what lies beyond the confines of our little blue sphere; we humans are a curious bunch, and I can't think of many other subjects which can put that spark of imagination into the eye of even our most grounded, practical, face-the-problems-here-and-now fellow citizens like space exploration and the contemplation of the universe at large can. Show someone Mars or Jupiter in a telescope, get them to put aside their problem for a few minutes and really think about the idea that that is another planet, that we, mankind, have sent machines there across ridiculously long miles, and they'll react with wonder and awe; I dare say I would doubt their basic humanity if they did not!

The overarcing problem is that it's hard, or even impossible, to make a profit on it. And our society, for better or worse, is a capitalistic one, and the bottom line is ALWAYS about making a profit. Mr. Musk and SpaceX are happy right now because they foresee a future profit in the satellite and manned-flight to LEO business, but that won't hold water beyond LEO because there just isn't a market for lunar operations, let alone Martian operations. And there won't be for all the reasons TNeo enumerated above.

My :2cents:: As long as our economy is governed by capitalism, we're not only stuck on our little ball of silicates and water, but more generally, we're stuck with all the social detritus that currently keeps our species from meaningful progress. Don't get me wrong, advances in technology and a slow betterment of the human condition will come, but only in so far as it is deemed profitable. Exploration on the scale of interplanetary ventures offer little in the way of profitability, despite all the fascinating scientific opportunities it may offer.

Until the day comes when a sizeable percentage of us 6 billion citizens decide once and for all to stop investing value into shiny metallic disks and pieces of paper with famous historical figures printed on them, we're not going anywhere. We, collectively, all of us who participate in and by our participation endorse the fiction of monetary wealth, myself included, do not (and argueably cannot) have our focus where it would need to be to take on such a profitless and difficult enterprise as exploration beyond the Earth-Moon system. We are, by necessity, too tied up looking towards our immediate future on a week-to-week and month-to-month and year-to-year basis.

And I don't see any change to this fact of life coming soon. Wouldn't have a clue even where to look for such change. And so, like many of us here on this forum I'd bet, I feel cheated and deprived of what could have been and what should be, like we missed our mark but can't pull our arrow out of the target now. We're drowning under the oceanic weight of a system devised to help deliver mankind from serfdom and indentured servitude to meaningful social equality. It's ironic that following the collapse of the Soviet experiment in socialism and the celebration of capitalistic supremacy that we should find ourselves just as surely bound as any prisoner in a Stalin-era gulag or a medieval serf working his lord's fields.
 
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As I understand orbital mechanics, an orbital bomb will miss the entire planet. ;)

Orbital bombardment means gravity bombs (smart or not) dropped from orbit and retrofired. An automated orbiting bomb is a robot weapon that is just waiting for a signal to engage retrofire and plunge into its target. It only misses the planet as long as its controllers want to.
 

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T.Neo's comment sounds quite realistic to me. There is nothing 'materialistic' to gain from spaceflight (no diamonds from moon, no gold from Mars), and very few people care about expanding our knowledge, unless they have a direct benefit from it.

I happend to be in China shortly after they sent up their first taikonaut, and it was amazing how little the Chinese I met cared about it. It was in all the news, but the interest in this mission was like in the proverbial 'sack of rice tipped over'.

Adding a slightly more pessimistic view to this, it could be the heigh days of manned spaceflight are already over since Apollo astronauts stepped on the Moon. The ISS is not a real goal for manned spaceflight (unless you consider farming in space a goal), and everything beyond LEO can be done with robotic exploration at a fraction of the cost, and with current technology.
 

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I am not that pessimistic there, I think spaceflight is the next great industry because it produces a lot of gains.

But you would have to look past the hype. Not every great idea of today will bring spaceflight forward, Space Tourism sounds interesting for everyone that wanted to become astronaut as child, but then, it offers only little chances for proper space economy, if the companies adopt the same NIH attitude as NASA.

The only way I see to get beyond LEO, is launching to LEO as often as possible. Ideally multiple times per day. Everything further is just the logical extension of LEO. But that can't be enforced by a law or agenda, that has to evolve in the direction. You need the goal, and never lose this goal, but it can't happen over night.
 

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IMHO, TNeo is right on the money: spaceflight, particularly manned-spaceflight, will remain a fool's errand for the immediate future because there is no real economical advantage for it.

I don't agree with that. I'm sure people thought there was no economic benefit to the automobile or to the airplane when they were first proposed.
Aside from the great mineral wealth proposed to reside in asteroids, imagine if the price for a ticket to LEO was comparable to the cost of a round-trip trans Pacific flight. Imagine being able to fly back and forth between the U.S. and Asia in less than an hour instead of a full day as it is now.
The only reason people say there is no economic benefit to space flight is because of the great cost involved now. However, as I said the capability to reduce the cost to orbit to the range of $100 per kilo already exists now.


Bob Clark
 

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Orbital bombardment means gravity bombs (smart or not) dropped from orbit and retrofired. An automated orbiting bomb is a robot weapon that is just waiting for a signal to engage retrofire and plunge into its target. It only misses the planet as long as its controllers want to.

I thought I put enough smilies in my post that everyone could see it was a joke. :cheers:

Orbital bombardment is such a bad idea that IMHO it will never be used. It's not exactly easy to hide them, and shooting them down so easy that they would be the first casualty of any conflict. You are severely restricted in when and where you can deploy the weapon, and when you think about the other options like ICBMs and cruise missiles, the idea of orbital bombs is more or less absurd.

When it comes to space tech 100 years from now, the most likely scenario is that someone comes up with a solution to a problem(or problems) we haven't thought of yet.
It's a lot of fun speculating about when and how the major breakthroughs are going to happen, but the odds on getting it right are very low, based on previous attempts to do so.

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

However, as I said the capability to reduce the cost to orbit to the range of $100 per kilo already exists now.

That must be the conspiracy of the century. NASA has been flying at 10k$/kg for almost 30 years when they could have done it for 100$/kg? No wonder we don't have colonies on Mars already. :thumbup:
 

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The first car already had a big economic gain to offer. ;) Lower maintenance costs than for a horse car and much longer range. It was maybe just 16 km/h fast, but that was not much slower than a contemporary horse car.

The first car had a promise in it, that it kept in a few years. High-Risk technologies with vague time schedules and lack of direction won't keep their promises. Skylon for example will likely fly, because it is not too advanced in technology (medium risk) and already showed in tests that the technological risk is successfully mitigated in development.

A Mars mission by SpaceX? Sure not. That involves a technological risk that only the whole country could tolerate.

---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

However, as I said the capability to reduce the cost to orbit to the range of $100 per kilo already exists now.

No, it doesn't.

We don't even have the existing capability yet to get to less than $5000 per kilo - it is possible to get to $5000, because you then really have math on your side. If you radically reduce R&D costs and have a streamlined production. But it is possible without the tax payer paying the other $15,000.


$100 is just fantasy. You can barely fly your weight once around the planet for $100 per kilogram by aircraft.
 

C3PO

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I think the 100$/kg is derived using the same kind of math as an old story that's well known around here.

Salesman: "If you buy one of our new stoves, you will reduce your annual consumption of coal by 50%.
Customer: "In that case I'll take two"
 

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The car was a waste because it was super expensive... It lacked standards... It couldn't move around the country for sh:censored:t because the roads were built for horses and the wheels of the car will sink... It took the combustion engine and mass manufacturing to make it cheap and affordable... And it took a great deal of infrastructure to make it run...
 

RGClark

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That must be the conspiracy of the century. NASA has been flying at 10k$/kg for almost 30 years when they could have done it for 100$/kg? No wonder we don't have colonies on Mars already. :thumbup:

As I said before the answer for how to do it is contained in that one sentence at the end of my sig file.
I know it sounds bizarre but this still has not been done. We all know to get high payload you want a high efficiency engine as measured by having a high Isp. And we know to maximize the amount of payload that reaches orbit you want to make the vehicle structure as light as possible. So it's obvious to maximize the payload you do both of these, right?
And indeed it was done - for upper stages. But this blindingly obvious step still has not been applied to first stages. My thesis is if you do, then what you wind up with will automatically be a SSTO capable stage.
The rest is just commentary.

Bob Clark

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

...

$100 is just fantasy. You can barely fly your weight once around the planet for $100 per kilogram by aircraft.


Yes we do as indicated by the ability to fly to the opposite side of the world and back under a business class or first class ticket for approx. $10,000.


Bob Clark

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

I think the 100$/kg is derived using the same kind of math as an old story that's well known around here.

Salesman: "If you buy one of our new stoves, you will reduce your annual consumption of coal by 50%.
Customer: "In that case I'll take two"

No, it comes from the principal stated at the end of my sig file. It's no magic. Anyone who knows the rocket equation can do the calculation themselves.


Bob Clark
 

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The problem behind space colonisation isn't capitalism, and its ravenous search for a profit, it's because everything needs to produce a profit to be viable in and of itself. And that doesn't change whether you're running a capitalist economy, or a communist economy, or a fusion reactor, or even if you're a single-celled organism, living in a hot spring.

And it isn't about capability or energy density or whatever either. Because even if I invent a Magic Box, that I strap onto a disused grain silo and turn into a LEO cargo vehicle that can achieve $1/kg, the Moon is still an airless cinder of temperature extremes, the asteroids are still more expensive to mine than the ground under Johannesburg, and the water on Mars is still frozen solid.

Why do you want to mine the asteroids, if you can mine on Earth in a manner that is easier, cheaper, and safer?

Why do you want to build a house on the Moon, when you can build one on Earth, where you do not need to breathe air out of a tin, or huddle under five meters of regolith to protect yourself from cosmic radiation, and instead have a whole planet at your fingertips?

Why do you want to build cities on Mars, when you can already have easier living in the Namib or Sahara?

Et cetera, et cetera.

The thing is, the difference between our time, and say, Da Vinci's time, is that we know far more than we can actually implement. Da Vinci, in his quest for a flying machine, didn't think up the ramifications of heavier than air flight, for example, he didn't understand the mechanisms of flight the way the first aviation pioneers did, he didn't think up things like internal combustion so he was limited to human-powered flight, etc.

But in our time, we can grasp the physics and the math behind such stupendous and complex ideas as fusion propulsion, interstellar travel, or even the notions of such speculative concepts as wormholes.

We can figure out what a high velocity interplanetary passenger spacecraft would be like- mathamatics wise, even engineering wise, to a degree, but we can't build it, because at the current time, we don't know how.

Likewise, we can imagine the reasons for interplanetary flight, space colonisation, etc, and what those things were like.

The ramifications of say, air travel weren't fully recognised by the Wright Brothers, but even a lowly observer such as myself could describe the attributes and effects of advanced spaceflight in a far better manner.

And it really gets to the point where it's a simple problem that can be understood by any elementary school child. Even with my magic-box propelled spacecraft, it's still not worth it to mine the asteroids or colonise Mars.

In short, it isn't about how you can get into space.

It's about what there is of interest in space.

And currently, we cannot find something that is so important so as to springboard mass-scale human spaceflight. The only way we can think of such a thing- the Manned Spaceflight Killer App, is to invent some ficticious reason, a 'MacGuffinite'. That is all fine and well for your science fiction novel, but fails in reality for obvious reasons.

Look, I'm not trying to be all pessimistic here. My mind is always awash with ideas of colonies in space and on planets, with ideas of interplanetary mass transit, ideas of terraforming and other such gigantic endeavours.

But the fact that there is no known Spaceflight Killer App, means that there simply isn't any reason for any of these things. There's nothing to be gained. It should be written down as a law of nature, that if there is nothing to be gained in a process, that process will not be viable.

Nothing will help that. Not Magic Boxes, not launching ten launch vehicles to LEO in a day, not supercheap launch costs. It isn't pessimism, it's just the lack of a Manned Spaceflight Killer App.

And when I say Manned Spaceflight Killer App, I mean a legitimate Killer App. Not "x discovery and y advance will magically turn us into a spacefaring civilisation". Hoping for that is about as sensible as waiting for pink flying unicorns to establish a passenger line to Neptune.
 

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Yes we do as indicated by the ability to fly to the opposite side of the world and back under a business class or first class ticket for approx. $10,000.

Yeah, but you have to admit, it is still pretty close to the $100 per kg, not that far away to say that it can act as optimistic example how close we could get.

Sorry, but propulsion costs money and getting to orbital speed requires a lot of propulsion. Even touching just $2000 (Without mix calculations like using the unused payload mass of a GTO launch) is pretty far away.
 

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No, it comes from the principal stated at the end of my sig file. It's no magic. Anyone who knows the rocket equation can do the calculation themselves.

You are adding apples and oranges.

From the link you posted in your sig:
For example, calculations show that the Titan II first stage, launched on its own, would have a 25-to-1 ratio of fuel to vehicle hardware.[2] It has a sufficiently efficient engine to achieve orbit, but without carrying much payload.

You take one part of a system, and apply the same criteria on another system. It's (sadly) not that simple.
You can launch 1'st stages with no payload all day, and you will not bring the launch cost down 1 cent. The Titan II had a max payload to LEO of ~3.100 kg. I'm not sure how much a Titan II launch was, but I'm quite sure it was more than 310.000$ by some margin.

You can't use Titan II 1'st stage to prove that you can build a SSTO space plane, and then use fuel cost to calculate mass-to-orbit cost.
 

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Also, what should NEVER be forgotten:

The rocket equation is not the end to all questions, it is only the beginning.

The rocket equation helps estimating the performance, but it does not tell you anything about how feasible it is.
 

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Also, what should NEVER be forgotten:

The rocket equation is not the end to all questions, it is only the beginning.

The rocket equation helps estimating the performance, but it does not tell you anything about how feasible it is.

STS uses ~9,300 m/s DV to get to 7,200 m/s! :)
 

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and then use fuel cost to calculate mass-to-orbit cost.

!

This is important.

Let's say we have an SSTO. It has a payload mass of 5 tons and a empty mass of 40 tons. It has a mass ratio of 11, so it has to carry 450 tons of propellant. Let's say 85.5% of the propellant is LOX, and 14.5% of the propellant is LH2.

Let's say LOX costs $0.30/kg, and LH2 costs $0.80/kg. So you've got roughly $170 000 worth of propellant. Now your cost per kilogram to orbit is only $34/kg!

But it doesn't work that way. You actually have to build and operate that spacecraft, and that takes a lot of money.

Von Braun estimated the cost of his Mars missions, etc, to be mostly made up by the cost of the propellant. This resulted in missions that were quite cheap, relatively speaking- a far cry from the reality of the programs that finally came in the 1960s.
 

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Don't we have nea that are metal rich rubble piles... That dosnt make it harder than mining 3 miles under Johannesburg...
 
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