Project XR2 Ravenstar - Mk II

[Urwumpe]

Nav/docking radar, as well. :hmm:

Rendezvous-Radar, laser ranging sensor and a floodlight for docking?

And a socket wrench to open the hatch in emergency. :lol:

 

[ercsim]

The 2d-panel IMHO is pretty good as it is. What do you want to see changed?

---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------

I have no doubt that the 2D panel is pretty good as it is. But I would like to see more of DGIV "non-crucial" flight systems. Cabin condition systems, and startup and shutdown procedures (with systems).

I have found myself to be obsessed with XR2's flying capabilities and DGIV complexity of its startup and shutdown procedures. Makes it "feel" more realistic.

 

[Ross]

I have no doubt that the 2D panel is pretty good as it is. But I would like to see more of DGIV "non-crucial" flight systems. Cabin condition systems, and startup and shutdown procedures (with systems).

I have found myself to be obsessed with XR2's flying capabilities and DGIV complexity of its startup and shutdown procedures. Makes it "feel" more realistic.

This was the only thing that prevented me from flying the XR-2 when I first found it. After a while though, I just couldn't resist :yes: I would definitely like to see a full systems shutdown procedure in the future though. That would be ultra cool.

 

[Cras]

Ill add that it would be nice to see life support systems, turn them on in start up, and turn them off when docked to the ISS or the like.

Would also be cool to see a power system. Fire up the fuel cells, external power units for pre-launch stuff, and that would also mean more tanks, would need N2 and H2 along with the O2(Lox) that the X2 already has.

I am with your Ross, the X2 is a superior ship in that it has not been discarded by its maker, much better flying machine, and I really like the way its links the APU with hydraulic systems , in though a few of the things (radiators/payload bay doors, airlock) that I would say should be operable sans APU. I always found it a bit odd in the DGIV why the APU unit had to remain on the entire flight. When I first flew that thing, my instincts were to kill it once in orbit, needless to say, things went very bad that day.

 

[N_Molson]

I agree that a little more complexity on the ECLSS would make the series even more enjoyable :thumbup:

 

[Urwumpe]

I agree that a little more complexity on the ECLSS would make the series even more enjoyable :thumbup:

Well, the problem is than: Does it matter?

 

[Coolhand]

This has come up several times before, and i'm sure even when Doug and Russ were working on the 1 and the 5.

The XR's give you everything you need to fly them to a destination, accomplish a task when you get there thats about it, other systems are just not needed and so we assume they're taken care of automatically, which is not unreasonable.

So all you need do with an XR2 is feed it and fly it - an idealised flight / space flight experience.

That said, i'm not sure at which point you feed the power system beyond fueling the APU, or really what sustains the electrical system when the APU is offline, as it can operate indefinately... perhaps it has a "zero-point" machine stashed away inside it somewhere. I'm really not sure what Dougs idea is with this, but in lieu of recalling an explanation i've considered that its perhaps a small reactor of some kind, which can go a long time between fueling which always provides enough power to run the LSU and flight systems, again an entirely automatic system, maybe Doug can elaborate further.

I textured some solar panels onto the payload bay doors, so if it bugs you, you can deploy the doors and, err, pretend :lol:

But whatever, I wouldn't let it ruin my day, the XR2 is not really intended for massive interplanetary jaunts or extended periods in orbit.

I haven't used up all the space in the cockpit control panels, so if its felt that some systems be explored further, i.e. a battery power meter (charged by operating the APU for example or facing the panels into the sun), its possible that can be added.

Lots of ideas for the nosecone, not sure if you guys are missing something but It's always had a docking radar in the nose - look closely inside the deployed nose of the mk1. Obviously there are certain implied features which must be on the ship - sensors to feed data to the flight computer etc - which are transparent to the flier due to the design philosophy mentioned further up (the solar panels previously mentioned would be another implied system) but nevertheless they should be represented somewhere, clearly many features can be hidden under the skin of the craft but a radar is something that will be in there again.

Perhaps to make this clearer it will be a smaller distinct unit, built somewhere close to the hinge of the 'bucket' rather than just a texture at the back of the nosecone.

Some lights are something i'd intended to add (thankyou urwumpe) (And still need to add some to the landing gear) i've added some to the model, whether they will be something that you can turn on and off from the cockpit i cannot personally guarantee but i'm sure i've seen a light mod for the mk1 (or have i?) so they can explain the source of this light at least.

Perhaps if they just turned on at the same time as the nosecone deploys and turned off automatically on contact... Maybe it would be easier to code a manual switch?

You would only need to deploy the nosecone under certain circumstances, as you have the lower access ladders for ground access, on the moon the hinge would need less power to deploy so you could mate a pressurised ground vehicle to it, and in space you would only deploy it on final approach to a station, at the point where you would no longer use the main engines - it would be nice to see something like the nosecone becoming inoperable, or even torn off if the engines were used.

also for opening it; there might be an emergency manual system in the docking tunnel or explosive separation, armed from within the airlock perhaps, but not necessarily something thats operated from the cockpit or even something that Doug has to model in code, might be nice to have that option so you can dock even if you've run out of APU fuel.

(and the nosecone hinge was beefed up at the same time as i changed from the petals to the bucket type nose - all the 'phase 3' pics show this large hinge as it was the first thing changed in phase 3

also, the 'phases' are just a way for me to organise things as i go along, they are not pre-planned. I hope to get all the exterior and all the exterior bays complete this time.

Also, some time ago i gave the ship some modelled nav lights, hopefully such things will not break any graphics cards that previously withstood the mk1.)

Eli13, why do you think you'll have problems, does your machine have a hard time with the base xr2 or 5 install?

Here are a couple more pics of the nose details so far. I had planned on improving the model of the docking system, but its identical to the old one, just better textures... and yes i will add more textural detail to the textures you see here (which costs nothing extra for your graphics cards) I'd also considered adding a hand rail in there. and / or using it as an area to store turbopacks.

 

[Richy]

...
also for opening it; there might be an emergency manual system in the docking tunnel or explosive separation, armed from within the airlock perhaps, but not necessarily something thats operated from the cockpit or even something that Doug has to model in code, might be nice to have that option so you can dock even if you've run out of APU fuel.
...

Why blow it up? Just fit in a manual handpump for the hydraulic pressure. Shouldn't be to heavy to operate in space. No need to blow up such a beautiful ship, just because you run out of APU fuel.

 

[Wishbone]

Manual handpump: only possible when you have spare Orang-utangs aboard...

 

[Coolhand]

Why blow it up? Just fit in a manual handpump for the hydraulic pressure. Shouldn't be to heavy to operate in space. No need to blow up such a beautiful ship, just because you run out of APU fuel.

well thats exactly what i said... perhaps i didn't emphasise option 1 enough

"there might be an emergency manual system in the docking tunnel or explosive separation"

But i wouldn't sweat it, I'm not counting on either being in there in a usable way in the sim, i can only make suggestions, I can't physically twist Dougs arm until he caves in over certain things, just bribe him with nice meshes.

 

[Keatah]

Well whadda'ya know? The Mk1 does indeed have a phased array in the nosecone! That's nice to notice details and things years later you never knew about.

 

[Urwumpe]

I still think the hydraulics and APUs are used for things in the XR series, that would usually be done by dual AC Motors in aerospace. But that is a years-old argument, that already got bad bruises when it met Dougs authority as developer back then. :lol:

Also, a manual pump for modern aerospace hydraulics is only interesting if you make bodybuilders the minimum requirement for astronauts - can you even imagine how much pressure they use in modern aircraft hydraulics for saving weight? 35 MPa! 350 atmospheres. Even if you assume that all the valves and control systems in the hydraulics can be bypassed somehow, you would likely need 100 times longer for moving an actuator by manual power, unless it is a actuator/valve with spring return, which would be impossible by manual then. You would need to deenergize the hydraulics first before you could even consider pumping manually.

You could keep the hydraulics pressurized for a moment by using the fluid stored in the accumulator and maybe blow some extra helium/pressurant into the accumulator for keeping it energized, but practically, there is little you can do to prevent the system pressure from dropping.

The AC Motors are better in that situation: as long as you have electricity, they work, and they are less messy to replace during EVA. If you have no electricity, you could use external power easier than external hydraulic pressure, or could even plug a manual generator into the motor control electronics to drive the motors (I would call that "post-mortem-IVA", since no electricity at all is usually fatal).

 

[Cras]

Everything you say makes good sense. At the moment flying the XR-2, which has become my primary mode of space travel, I just assume the rest of the crew is dealing with those other systems, other wise they are just a bunch of dead beat squaters on my ship.

And Urwumpe is on to my line of thinking on the APU. I just dont see why hydraulic power is needed to do some of the things the XR-2 uses it for, like the bay doors and radiators mainly. If the Space Shuttle can open its mighty bay doors using AC power, I figure the XR2 certainly could open hers the same.

And I did see the solar panels in the bay doors in some of those nice screenshots. Even better reason to have them open now in orbit. Just doesn't look right to me to have them closed, maybe too much flying the Shuttle...

I love the ring on the nosecose airlock in that last pic you posted. Looks great.

 

[Eli13]

Eli13, why do you think you'll have problems, does your machine have a hard time with the base xr2 or 5 install?

Yes it does, I can run the XR2 within a tolerable limit of FPS, but the XR5 is beyond trying. 2 FPS on average does not wear well on my computer, or my patience for that matter.

EDIT: The XR2 has an average of 20-something FPS on my computer.

 

[Coolhand]

There are only visible hydraulic systems on the model at the landing gear and at the airbrake with their actuators, so for everything else why can't you consider that it is run as purely electrical systems? (which all the same, still require the APU)

At the end of the day, afaik, its been a long time since i've flown... You have no indicators for hydraulic or electric systems in the cockpit, because of points which have already been covered.

In that respect, all that matters is that you flick a switch and it does something that helps you accomplish your mission. If you need the APU to do it, as far as i'm concerned at least, it can provide electrical power as well as drive hydraulic pumps...

Perhaps saying its hydraulic deflects attention from the mysterious power source of the electrical systems and avoids a resulting loss of immersion, though I do feel sorry for the small number of orbinauts who absolutely *can't* enjoy it as it is because its missing something that they find satisfaction in. I'm sure most either don't care or get over it.

Remember this, though it may forever ruin your gaming experience - at the end of the day, no matter how bewildering the cockpit, no matter how many subsystems are modelled and how lovingly crafted and realistic the models and physics might be; you're still just sat in front of your computer enjoying (or cringing at) a piece of graphical and mathematical art.

Anyway getting back on topic... As far as i'm concerned the nosecone has always been driven electrically, there's certainly no evidence of hydraulics as in actuators at least, though i'd considered putting them in. so for adding a manual release whether thats a pumping mechanism for the ships ape, a highly geared down hand crank, pressure release or whatever i might just place a large handle recessed in the docking tunnel and deliberately leave it as an ambiguous mechanism.

Or, perhaps I will just conveniently forget and move on:lol: - I mean i have no obligation really to model something that will likely not be reflected in the code (its different from example, the radar, as that is implied by the MFD's) but i think it would be a nice detail to have.

And finally, dont forget this arrangement works both ways, if Doug wanted something he might have to twist my arm to model it in or perhaps just not have it.

However i don't know if thats ever been proven as he has made basically 0 requests, other than a clean white skin for the mk1 and tbh i couldn't even give him that at the end of the day.:facepalm:

Hopefully Doug, i'm sure you'll read this, you have this small request fulfilled this time

---------- Post added 11-05-11 at 12:05 AM ---------- Previous post was 10-05-11 at 11:50 PM ----------

I love the ring on the nosecose airlock in that last pic you posted. Looks great.

hah, i'm still thinking of re-building that docking ring, its just the mk1 mesh with a better texture. it will do and i will move on though i think, i'd only be throwing more triangles at it... its deliberately a separate part so i could fit other docking systems in there and 'easily' replace it with an improved one.

The XR2 has an average of 20-something FPS on my computer.

I'm surprised you have such a difference between the xr2 and the xr5, the 5 is larger and heavier - more triangles - but i think the xr2 uses more texture space.

Have you tried scaling down the textures? the large 2k upper and lower hull textures, when scaled down to 1k (1024x1024) should offer you a framerate improvment. If you try it, i would be interested to know what improvement it made.

 

[yagni01]

You could make things more manually 'complicated', but without failures, emergency procedures, etc. it really doesn't take away from the flight experience of an advanced, automated vehicle. The only thing I would say it needed was isolation valves for the fuels and O2. For safety (I've accidentally hit the main throttle on approach - not a good thing) and to 'turn off' life support.

The way I make the scenarios more real is to be connected to external supplies, door(s) open. Buttoning up and shifting to internal is plenty of 'manual'

 

[ercsim]

You could make things more manually 'complicated', but without failures, emergency procedures, etc. it really doesn't take away from the flight experience of an advanced, automated vehicle. The only thing I would say it needed was isolation valves for the fuels and O2. For safety (I've accidentally hit the main throttle on approach - not a good thing) and to 'turn off' life support.

The way I make the scenarios more real is to be connected to external supplies, door(s) open. Buttoning up and shifting to internal is plenty of 'manual'

Yes, I have to agree with you when you state that you can manually 'complicate' things. However, things like, shutting down the engine (so that, when anyone touch the throttle, it won't move forward) or, shutting down the life support system, so that, you don't need to use the ventilation system all the time, 24/7 when you are on Earth would be a cool addition to a great ship.

 

[Coolhand]

yeah it is embarrassing to accidentally nudge the ISS out of orbit... not sure if i mentioned it earlier, but my idea for the new nosecone is that when deployed it would make the mains / retro inoperable, so when docked it would therefore be impossible to operate those engines, rcs can of course be turned off.


Also, again i might be mistaken or not remembering correctly, but I thought if you dock then the ships internal life-support automatically switches over to the station and if on the ground, on earth, if you open the hatches it will also turn off the LSU.

 

[Xyon]

You could make things more manually 'complicated', but without failures, emergency procedures, etc. it really doesn't take away from the flight experience of an advanced, automated vehicle. The only thing I would say it needed was isolation valves for the fuels and O2. For safety (I've accidentally hit the main throttle on approach - not a good thing) and to 'turn off' life support.

This handles failures for the existing fleet, though it is still in development. I plan to, if possible, extend it to support the MK II when it becomes available.

Since the XR API allows me control of the quantity of LOX available it wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility to simulate a life support failure with that framework.

 

[Cras]

When I have the XR-2 on the Earth, when I switch over to External Cooling (which I also pretend/assume serves as the umbiical for external power as well), the ship switches to external oxygen, shutting down the LSS. I also tend to store the ship (I have a fleet of four operational atm) with no LOX or fuel in it. Then when I have it set up on an ENERGY stack for launch, I tank the ship with fuel and LOX, close the hatch, then at about 2 minutes before launch I start up the APU, then kill the External Cooling to simulate the ship being on internal power and that is when it starts to use up my on board O2.

Nose cone being open killing the mains is a very nice idea.