Alien Biochemistry

ZombiezuRFER

Zaktan Zanamu, margum Zavralto
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Just discuss alien biochemistry.

In my book, The Heretic Empires, the aliens are not carbon based, but (at least until a valid solution is found) they're Magnesium Oxide based life. Is this a possible form for life?
 

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
Just discuss alien biochemistry.

In my book, The Heretic Empires, the aliens are not carbon based, but (at least until a valid solution is found) they're Magnesium Oxide based life. Is this a possible form for life?

:facepalm::compbash2::compbash:
No... Take chemistry...
 

ZombiezuRFER

Zaktan Zanamu, margum Zavralto
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Still in Highschool. :shrug:
I had read somewhere that metal oxides were supposed to be a good possible base for life, magnesium oxide among them in the article. I knew that magnesium oxide came about from it being burned in an atmosphere with oxygen. Obviously, iron oxide won't work. What other possible bases can you think of?
EDIT: Other than Silicon. I'm not going to bother touching that awful stuff.
 
Last edited:

Artlav

Aperiodic traveller
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
5,790
Reaction score
780
Points
203
Location
Earth
Website
orbides.org
Preferred Pronouns
she/her
Well, list everything you can imagine, throw it away, and pick what's left.
 

Wishbone

Clueless developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
2,421
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Moscow
Other than Silicon. I'm not going to bother touching that awful stuff.

Some of us said the same in the past, but you never know if it is silicon or mother Nature.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Because I have an inflated sense of self worth, I'll just repost part of my post in the Extraterrestrial Intelligence thread. :p

One thing people tend to forget about "alternate biochemistries" is that while they might be possible, they tend to be quite chemically limiting. For example, water surpasses methane as a solvent, and its liquid range is at a far higher temperature, allowing faster/higher chemical interaction. Methane is also liquid over a short temperature range, which makes an ecological reliance on it pretty tricky.

Silicon also has problems. For example, it is not as chemically active as carbon, is less abundant, and its oxide (silicon dioxide, or sand) is not soluble in water.

It is for reasons like these, among others, that make it improbable for 'alternate' life to evolve into complex, advanced organisms that might build spacecraft, for example. It is not narrow-mindedness, rather, they are at a simple and clear chemical disadvantage to life similar to us. I'm not excluding anything that is not carbon-and-water-based, but rather excluding most, if not all, of the currently proposed biochemistry concepts.

Life existing on any of the noble gases is, dare I say it, impossible. These are gases that are inert, they will not even interact with the environment or form any sort of biologically useful chemicals, let alone be metabolically advantageous.

It is also not egotistical to suggest that life chemically similar to our own will predominate. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. In our own galaxy, it is followed- after inert Helium, by oxygen (third most common element). Carbon is the fourth most common element. Nitrogen is the seventh.

All the components of CHON are in the top ten most abundant elements, and all but one of the components of CHONPS are in the top ten- sulfur makes an apperance as #10, but phosphorous is nowhere to be seen (though presumably is not that far down the line). This is not critical as phosphorous is not required that much by living things, and even then, alternatives like arsenic are probably far less common (phosphorous makes up some 1000 ppm of the Earth's crust, arsenic is only 1.5-2.5 ppm).

That doesn't mean that extraterrestrial life could not be chemically novel- they could be made out of the same (or similar) chemical "building blocks", but arrange them in totally different ways. The side effect is that alien sirloin steaks could be fulling without having any calories (alternate chirality of the molecules), or could even kill you, act as an illicit drug, or be medicinally important (have natively common but otherwise unknown biochemicals with unforseen effects).

That said, I don't think magnesium-oxide based life is chemically plausible or even possible.
 

ZombiezuRFER

Zaktan Zanamu, margum Zavralto
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Well, I just wished to know. Alternative biochemistry is indeed a tricky subject to debate without experimentation. Ecologically, I see MgO as possible. Plants gather energy from the sun, zap some magnesium with electricity, and ingest the MgO. Animals then eat the plant, and animals eat animals, decomposers return MgO and Mg to the environment, cycle starts over again. Chemically I don't know. Lets keep experimenting with it. WHat does MgO react to and form chemical chains (or whatever it called :S) with?
 

Linguofreak

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
5,034
Reaction score
1,273
Points
188
Location
Dallas, TX
Because I have an inflated sense of self worth, I'll just repost part of my post in the Extraterrestrial Intelligence thread. :p

You mention Phosphorous there. As I understand, it's the limiting element for Earth-type life. (IE, the ratio of abundance in life on Earth to abundance in the universe is higher than for any other element.)
 

n72.75

Move slow and try not to break too much.
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Tutorial Publisher
Donator
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
2,696
Reaction score
1,355
Points
128
Location
Saco, ME
Website
mwhume.space
Preferred Pronouns
he/him
It could be a form of life, but not as we know it.

The reason carbon and silicon work is that they form long chains.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
You mention Phosphorous there. As I understand, it's the limiting element for Earth-type life. (IE, the ratio of abundance in life on Earth to abundance in the universe is higher than for any other element.)

It should not be a problem if it has a far higher relative abundance than any other element within organisms. If Earth is somehow higher in the abundance of phosphorous than the rest of the universe, you have a special case. But there shouldn't be anything against organisms concentrating a chemical that is present in the environment.

On top of that, the alternatives to phosphorous (arsenic, etc) are, to my knowledge, less abundant than phosphorous, but I'm not sure if this is specific to Earth.

The reason carbon and silicon work is that they form long chains.

That isn't really enough. There are big differences between carbon and silicon compounds... for example, look at how common hydrocarbons are, but analogous silicon-hydrogen compounds are rarer.

WHat does MgO react to and form chemical chains (or whatever it called :S) with?

I'm not really sure, but unfortunately I don't think such molecules would be anything like the chemistry of life.
 

Linguofreak

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
5,034
Reaction score
1,273
Points
188
Location
Dallas, TX
It should not be a problem if it has a far higher relative abundance than any other element within organisms. If Earth is somehow higher in the abundance of phosphorous than the rest of the universe, you have a special case. But there shouldn't be anything against organisms concentrating a chemical that is present in the environment.

Well, it's more than just that life concentrates phosphorous. It's that it requires a certain amount of it, and the ratio between the amount it needs and the abundance of the element in question in the universe is higher for phosphorous than any other element.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Yes, but also remember that the ratio comparison is interesting but might not always be important.

The actual amount of phosphorous that an organism may need might be quite small compared to its total mass, and therefore easy to aquire in the environment.
 

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
In a relatively conservative view of biology, ETs will probably use cabon based chemistry... The only difference is the amino acids and structure...

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------

A possibly good base mayb boron... I'm not sure though...
 

Linguofreak

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
5,034
Reaction score
1,273
Points
188
Location
Dallas, TX
Yes, but also remember that the ratio comparison is interesting but might not always be important.

The actual amount of phosphorous that an organism may need might be quite small compared to its total mass, and therefore easy to aquire in the environment.

Well, the context I heard it in was more "if you kept building Earth-type organisms until you had run out of the universe's entire supply of one element, which element would that be?".

In any case, I'm not sure what about phosphorus makes it so prevalent in life. It's used in nucleic acids, ATP, and cell membranes, but I'm not sure if there's any reason that a chemical fulfilling the same general functions (genetics, energy, and structure, respectively) would require phosphorus to be viable for those roles in an organism. I'd say there's a fairly good possibility that extraterrestrial life could do without phosphorus.
 

Keatah

Active member
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
2,218
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Why don't we use all this glorious nanotech these universities keep spouting off about and start to build some alien life. Or even carbon based!

If we can't build carbon life in the lab, then we are not really qualified to say with any certainty if life can work with other chemistries.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
In any case, I'm not sure what about phosphorus makes it so prevalent in life. It's used in nucleic acids, ATP, and cell membranes, but I'm not sure if there's any reason that a chemical fulfilling the same general functions (genetics, energy, and structure, respectively) would require phosphorus to be viable for those roles in an organism. I'd say there's a fairly good possibility that extraterrestrial life could do without phosphorus.

I am skeptical... we cannot say for sure unless we observe a similar molecule that either excludes phosphorous or contains a similar element in its place.

Either way, there might not be any reason for most extraterrestrial life to go without phosphorous... if it is widespread enough in the environment, it will probably be utilised.

If we can't build carbon life in the lab, then we are not really qualified to say with any certainty if life can work with other chemistries.

Building life in a lab will not help you with figuring out what is plausible in nature, for the same reason that bicycles do not arise out of the odd primordial soup.

When I say "this or that alternate biochemistry is at a chemical disadvantage", I am not making things up. You do not need to have a PhD to discern the chemical differences between carbon and silicon, for example. Or carbon and boron.
 

Keatah

Active member
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
2,218
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Sure it will !! Building life in a lab demonstrates our understanding of the process. If we cannot build it, then it means we do not know enough about it!
 

ZombiezuRFER

Zaktan Zanamu, margum Zavralto
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
126
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Being able to build it in a lab means that it can be done in nature as well.
 
Top