Ares 1 flaws solved

[thomasantony]

Maybe there is hope after all..


A few months ago, NASA started analyzing different ways to best adjust the vibrations problem for the new moon-ship, Orion. The concern was mainly related to the fact that even though vibrations might not kill the astronauts, they will make it impossible for them to complete their tasks.
The problem was initially discovered in October and at first considered the main obstacle in completing the project. But as time passed and tests were made, the experts concluded that their worries were greatly exaggerated and the solution rather accessible.
Garry Lyles, the engineer leading the NASA team on this matter declared that “the leading solution is to put weight on springs in parts of the bottom end of the rocket and underneath astronauts' seats to dampen the vibrations,” according to the Associated Press. "These are actually absorbers that are used in vehicles today, especially one-ton and 1 1/2-ton pickup trucks," added Lyles.
Even though the matter seems to be successfully resolved, NASA wants to take no chance and keeps it on the top of the concern list, searching for additional solutions, as a back-up.
The Government Accountability Office underlined other possible complications, among which too much weight in both the rocket and Orion Capsule, design flaws, insufficient facilities for certain testing and the incapacity to replicate the 1960’s heat shield.
The project is part of the Bush administration’s space plan, and aims to have everything up and running by 2020. In order to keep progress rate constant, the 2009 budget request for the Constellation program is of $3 billion.


http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_NASA_Solves_Important_Rocket_Flaw_15967.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/science/04rocket.html?ref=us

 

[NukeET]

The Government Accountability Office underlined other possible complications, among which too much weight in both the rocket and Orion Capsule, design flaws, insufficient facilities for certain testing and the incapacity to replicate the 1960’s heat shield.

...you gotta be kidding!

We can send a man to the moon, but can't replicate the 1960's heat shield.

 

[Dogsbd]

Something is wrong with the GAO report or it was reported wrong, as it was my understanding that Orion was to use a Stardust derived heat shield made of Phenolic Impregnated Carbon Ablator (PICA) instead of an Apollo derived design.

 

[Urwumpe]

I think the solution is also already pretty annoying as it means much more mass on the rocket... which means a larger second stage is needed...

 

[NukeET]

Something is wrong with the GAO report or it was reported wrong, as it was my understanding that Orion was to use a Stardust derived heat shield made of Phenolic Impregnated Carbon Ablator (PICA) instead of an Apollo derived design.

That's GAO for you.:huh:

For more on PICA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_reentry

 

[Dogsbd]

I think the solution is also already pretty annoying as it means much more mass on the rocket... which means a larger second stage is needed...

Exactly.

Also I think it is a bit early to state definitively that any flaws have been solved given that the first vehicle hasn't even been built yet, much less flown!

Meanwhile I'm going to keep in mind what Mike Griffin had to say on all this:

[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]It isn't going to be easy. Did any of you here today think it was going to be easy? May I see a show of hands? How many of you thought we were going to re-create a capability for the United States to go to the Moon, a capability well beyond Apollo, and do it without any development problems? Anyone? So, no, we don't yet have all the answers to the engineering questions we will face, and in some cases we don't even know what those questions will be.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]That is the nature of engineering development. But we are going to continue to follow the data in our decision-making, continue to test our theories, and continue to make changes if necessary. [/SIZE][/FONT]​

 

[Urwumpe]

But still, the problems are bigger as promised when NASA announced "we can do this better by using shuttle hardware." The Ares V becomes more and more an Delta-IV on steroids, and I can already hear the Ares I go Ieku-Ieku-Ieku-Ieku, after standing too long on the pad in moist weather.

I sometimes hope, NASA scientists would be above "not invented here". But well, utopic.

 

[simonpro]

I still think they could have saved us a whole host of issues if the bosses had just decided to go with a proper launch vehicle rather than this shuttle derived SRB-a-like. It's all very well building on what has gone before, but there are some things that we should leave behind for a reaosn.

 

[Donamy]

If you're talking about going back to square one, congress will kill the space program. No bucks, no Buck Rogers !

 

[simonpro]

Why go back to square one? We have plenty of boosters* capable of launchign a vehicle of that size. No need to design another.


*i.e: More than zero.

 

[Urwumpe]

Congress can't kill the space program - they had better situations for doing that and the general public is still in support of it.

But going back to square 1 would be a good chance...later. It is still possible to force NASA to use commercial launchers as often as possible if available. Of course, NASA could design spacecraft, which only fit on their launch vehicles and the control committees could force NASA to follow standard designs...

Practically, the future space race (if we ever get one) will not get solved by the country which builds the most sophisticated launcher, but which develops the most economic access to space. And NASA is obviously not capable of doing so without force...

The times, where being the first is something to be proud of, are long gone. Now is the time, where being the last to leave space is more important.

 

[Dogsbd]

After scanning the actual GAO report what it states is that there are no currently existing facilities that can manufacture the size shield required for Orion.

It also states that the Apollo type shield was planned by NASA to be a backup to the PICA type shield if unforeseen problems cropped up with PICA (although GAO doesn't mention PICA by name). However, according to the GAO report, NASA has not thus far been able to re-create the Apollo thermal protection material.

Given that there is no indication that PICA won't work I doubt that NASA has expended a lot of energy in re-creating the Apollo type TPS.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Why can't we just strap Orion on top of a Delta 4 Medium, light the fuse, and have a nice little project? If you needed more payload, strap on a few CBCs. Need some more? Launch two mediums! Seriously, we have the launchers, why reinvent the wheel...or rather rocket.

 

[Andy44]

"These are actually absorbers that are used in vehicles today, especially one-ton and 1 1/2-ton pickup trucks," added Lyles.

Only in America would you borrow design ideas from pickup trucks for a rocket launch vehicle! :lol:

The Government Accountability Office underlined other possible complications, among which too much weight in both the rocket and Orion Capsule, design flaws, insufficient facilities for certain testing and the incapacity to replicate the 1960’s heat shield.

Lovely. The obvious solution to the weight problem is to build a more powerful rocket. I mean, the whole idea of this circus is to send a vehicle substantially bigger than Apollo, right? So stop stripping stuff off it and make the loud, burning end serve the pointy end instead of the other way around.

As for the heat shield; I'm sure they could manufacture it if they wanted, but there are a lot of things made in the 60's that are hard to reproduce because the industrial base has evolved. It's just a matter of how much you want to spend to rebuild the tooling and other capacity.

There's a popular myth out there that we couldn't build a Saturn V anymore because we don't know how. That's nonsense, of course. It would just cost more to start from scratch, is all. But with tech and material improvements you've have a better, lighter, version of the same machine, with other differences due to changes in personalities and engineering philosophies.

 

[tomek]

What tasks are they referring to, that require shock absorbers for seats only? What about instruments' panels? Are they going to put those on shock absorbers too?

 

[Urwumpe]

What tasks are they referring to, that require shock absorbers for seats only? What about instruments' panels? Are they going to put those on shock absorbers too?

Solid state electronics usually survive more vibrations as humans. The electronic boxes next to railways have to survive 30G vibrations. At these vibrations, the Ares I would break into pieces.

 

[tomek]

My question was about a phrase in thomasantony's post:

The concern was mainly related to the fact that even though vibrations might not kill the astronauts, they will make it impossible for them to complete their tasks.

It seems to imply that astronauts need to actively perform some tasks during ascent, not just sit tight. Of course I do agree that Ares I breaking into pieces would complicate their activity somewhat...

 

[Urwumpe]

It seems to imply that astronauts need to actively perform some tasks during ascent, not just sit tight. Of course I do agree that Ares I breaking into pieces would complicate their activity somewhat...

There is not much, the crew would have to do actively during first stage ascent, except hitting the big red button in emergency. After staging, when the crew has more influence on flight, there are also less vibrations.

 

[Andy44]

From the OP:

“the leading solution is to put weight on springs in parts of the bottom end of the rocket and underneath astronauts' seats to dampen the vibrations,” according to the Associated Press.

It seems that they are trying to dampen the whole system, not just the seats.

 

[tomek]

Well yes, I noticed, yet they still want to dampen the seats too. I'm just wondering what's the use of damping seats only, if the rest of the capsule if still going to vibrate. Or are they saying that without those dampened seats astronauts would get so screwed up that they would be incapable of any meaningful activity afterwards?