Updates Ares Updates and Discussion

[Zatnikitelman]

So a person with a degree automatically makes the right decision? So these people with degrees at NASA came up with the best vehicle for the job? We're sure these great engineers didn't design this thing because some flunkie with a business degree and not an engineering degree said "design me a single SRB vehicle regardless of whether it's good!" Yes Mike Griffin who designed a single-SRB vehicle does have the degrees, but does that automatically make what he designs the best one?
I'm not saying no-degree is better, all I'm saying is just because someone has the degree doesn't mean they'll do it right.

 

[Urwumpe]

So a person with a degree automatically makes the right decision?

No, but a person with a degree has not only more reputation behind it's decisions, but also more real knowledge about the topic to decide. If a person with a degree makes an error, maybe you should wonder yourself, how many errors you would have done instead, which this person did right.

So these people with degrees at NASA came up with the best vehicle for the job? We're sure these great engineers didn't design this thing because some flunkie with a business degree and not an engineering degree said "design me a single SRB vehicle regardless of whether it's good!" Yes Mike Griffin who designed a single-SRB vehicle does have the degrees, but does that automatically make what he designs the best one?
I'm not saying no-degree is better, all I'm saying is just because someone has the degree doesn't mean they'll do it right.

You are so terribly wrong, that I would like to give you a lie diploma.

Mike Griffin did not design it, it was designed and propagated aggressively by ATK, the manufacturer of the SRBs, right when it became clear that the bidding for the future spacecraft had started. (On a lighter hearted side: ATK must really have started organizing the faster, safer, sooner campaign when the Columbia debris was still in free fall)

Griffin just had to decide which design is not only economically but also politically realistic: ATK is the only big aerospace company in Utah and Utah has powerful senators.


Mike Griffin has all together seven academic degrees:

Bachelor of Science/Physics (Johns Hopkins University, 1971)
Master of Science/Aerospace Science(The Catholic University of America, 1974)
PhD Aerospace Engineering(University of Maryland, College Park, 1977)
Master of Engineering/Electrical Engineering(University of Southern California, 1979)
Master of Science/Applied Physics(Johns Hopkins University,1983)
Master of Business Administration (Loyola College in Maryland)
Master of Engineering/Civil Engineering(The George Washington University, 1998)

Only one business degree out of seven, but 3 in engineering and 2 in physics and one in aerospace science.

 

[Moonwalker]

Also, it is not important what others do believe would be the best for NASA, especially people who don't have a degree and are not working in the business at all. Having a degree does not mean to do everything right of course. But no degree and no experience in the real business away from home computers and Orbiter does mean to be unable to call the NASA management idiots. The only thing that remains is to tell an opinion. And that the NASA manegement consists of "idiots" is nothing else than just an opinion. We should not rub it in too much

And why degrees exist and why people have to get it first, hasn't only been perfectly pointed out by Urwumpe, but is also quite obvious. If you want to fly a 747, get a licence first. If you want to become a manager and take massive decisions, get qualifications first. With every consideration, I'm glad that lots of people I meet in forums are no NASA manager

 

[T.Neo]

You may be the smartest guy on the planet, but without a degree, you will be just a talented guy with strange ideas.

Or a talented guy with really good ideas.

Smart people who should have degrees are irrespective to the discussion here. I'm talking about stupid people, who shouldn't have their degrees.

I'm not saying no-degree is better, all I'm saying is just because someone has the degree doesn't mean they'll do it right.

Ditto.

 

[Urwumpe]

Smart people who should have degrees are irrespective to the discussion here. I'm talking about stupid people, who shouldn't have their degrees.

So you think you can decide better from your chair, with the limited knowledge that you have, and the not existing engineering and program management skills you have?

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

BTW, about Griffins qualifications:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Space-Vehicle-Design-Aiaa-Education/dp/1563475391/ref=sr_1_1/178-0157161-3519401?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254256718&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Space Vehicle Design (Aiaa Education Series) (9781563475399): Michael D. Griffin, James R. French: Books[/ame]

I don't have it read yet, but if I can find it in my universities library, I would sure give it a try...

 

[T.Neo]

So you think you can decide better from your chair, with the limited knowledge that you have, and the not existing engineering and program management skills you have?

Nowhere, in that post, did I suggest that I would make a better space program manager. I do not manage a space program, my skills in that area are irrelevant.

 

[Urwumpe]

Nowhere, in that post, did I suggest that I would make a better space program manager. I do not manage a space program, my skills in that area are irrelevant.

Ah, so you are even worse: You are a critic who claims to know how to do it, but can't do it yourself? :lol:

 

[T.Neo]

Ah, so you are even worse: You are a critic who claims to know how to do it, but can't do it yourself? :lol:

No. I never claimed anything.

 

[Orbinaut Pete]

I'll chip in with my thoughts on the posts below:

The one thing that Ares I-X, and indeed NASA as a whole needs right now, is leadership.

And, in my opinion, leadership is something that you either are, or are not born with.
You can't learn it in a class. You can't get a piece of paper that makes you able to do it.
You can have as many Ph.D's as you like, and be useless at it.
Similarly, you can be brilliant at it, but not have a single qualification to your name.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hielor]

No. I never claimed anything.

Er, yes, actually, you did:

Because the people who manage NASA are idiots.

In order to claim that someone is an idiot, you must believe that you know more about what they are doing than they do, because if you knew less than they did you would not be in a position to call them idiots. You justified your statement by saying that you've done "web research" to qualify you to make that statement.

 

[Urwumpe]

No. I never claimed anything.

ah, the classic: Denial.

 

[Brad]

Let's stay on TOPIC! This is a warning to everyone... stay on TOPIC. No personal attacks.

 

[Moonwalker]

I'm talking about stupid people, who shouldn't have their degrees.

I'm glad those people are there including their degrees.

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

And, in my opinion, leadership is something that you either are, or are not born with.
You can't learn it in a class. You can't get a piece of paper that makes you able to do it.

Your are born with any human capability (as long as you're born healthy). It's the social environment and certain circumstances that makes humans what they are. Everything is about learning. You're not really born with something special. Just as Einsetin said, that he is not an above-average intelligent person, but an above-average curious person. If somebody really is intersted in something, he/she won't have problems doing it/understanding it.

 

[Orbinaut Pete]

Your are born with any human capability (as long as you're born healthy). It's the social environment and certain circumstances that makes humans what they are. Everything is about learning. You're not really born with something special. Just as Einsetin said, that he is not an above-average intelligent person, but an above-average curious person. If somebody really is intersted in something, he/she won't have problems doing it/understanding it.

I have to agree with you there.

---
Anyway, I've gone off-topic again. Sorry.

 

[Orbinaut Pete]

Try as I might, I just cannot get excited about the Ares I-X Test Flight.

Why?

Because I just don't believe in it. It’s not in my heart & soul, like the Shuttle & ISS are.
At the moment, there are just too many unknowns, too much uncertainly, too many other alternatives to consider, too much speculation on what might be that is clouding what was originally planned to be "the first flight of a new era".

I wish this flight could be "the first flight of a new era", but unfortunately, at least to me, it represents an era that probably won't happen, at least not as originally planned. And even if it does happen, I can't say that I'm 100% committed to that era, for many reasons that I have already covered in other threads.

It's still not certain if Ares I-X will ever get off the ground – President Obama is set to decide the fate of NASA before it lifts-off.

I'm not even sure if I want it to fly. I currently don't have a favourite alternative to Ares - there are just too many alternatives to choose from.

 

[Urwumpe]

I also feel betrayed by NASA not making it a proper test flight of a new rocket.

I am actually more excited of a possible Taurus II test.

 

[RocketMan_Len]

Personally, I'd like to see them do an unmanned abort-and-destruct test... not only to see if the abort system works, but to see if it will actually carry the capsule out of the cloud of flaming debris from the solid-rocket destruction.

(After all... if the parachutes get hit by debris and melt, the crew is in just as much trouble as in a Shuttle flight... :spam: )

 

[Moonwalker]

I'm 100% excited by the Ares launchers, especially Ares1. Even if it ever won't enter operational status. I'm actually excited by almost anything NASA choses to lift a capsule off the ground and offers potential missions beyond LEO. Even if DIRECT would make it. I'm totally bored and disappointed by the Space Shuttle in this context. The last Shuttle flight will be a big event for me, less in sense of melancholy, but much in sense of hope for a future that offers deep space capabilities, even if the money is not there yet, and even if there is a huge gap. I'm wating for something to happen in that direction since 1992. So anybody can guess my relief I feel on the Shuttle retirement these days. I'm in hope to experience a great change of manned space flight rather than LEO bound mission profiles within my entire lifetime. I won't lose any tear once the Shuttle and ISS have become history.

Hope dies last

 

[tblaxland]

I also feel betrayed by NASA not making it a proper test flight of a new rocket.

I feel frustrated but I do not feel betrayed. After all what obligation does NASA have to me? I might feel differently if I happened to be an American citizen.

I am actually more excited of a possible Taurus II test.

I would look forward to news on that (in a separate thread of course )

 

[Urwumpe]

I feel frustrated but I do not feel betrayed. After all what obligation does NASA have to me? I might feel differently if I happened to be an American citizen.

Not because NASA owes something to me, but rather than NASA behaves like a creepy hot air selling aerospace company.