Avsim hacked!

[Usonian]

You'll never find a lawyer who would go after this from a terrorism angle. You will, however, find many lawyers looking for an easy civil case.

Since the offender appears to be English (or have I got that wrong?), how would AVSIM press their case? Hire a British lawyer and pursue it entirely within their system, under English law? Or since the crime and damage was done to an American firm, and to a server located on American soil (I'm presuming), does U.S. law apply? If so, would/could the accused be extradited to stand trial in the U.S.? Was the crime committed in England or America?

Clearly, I am completely ignorant of international law, especially as it applies to the borderless "interwebs."

 

[Urwumpe]

Usonian: If the crime was done to a US person, you can sue him inside the USA. Just look at the PDF hacker case, which targeted at Dmitry Sklyarov, a Russian citizen, who eventually got arrested by FBI when Sklyarov visited a US conference (knowing that he had a warrant in the USA).

Extracting the people from UK into the USA would be much harder, almost all "civilized" countries have a law that prevents them from extraditing their citizens to other countries - they only do so in two cases: The person is a refugee or you have an international warrant (which you will currently not get for civil crimes and which is pretty hard to get)

 

[Mandella]

The answer would be "yes" only because prosecuters use whatever law they can to get a conviction, and really aren't known for displaying restraint, so you are essentially correct.

And this certainly isn't new in the US, unfortunately. I had some college buddies in the very early 80s get slapped with terrorism charges (among several others) for a very, very stupid drunken prank they pulled. The terrorism charges were later dropped, but it sure got their attention.

My point is that although 9/11 and the Patriot Act has made more people conscious of the word terrorism, "throwing the book and seeing what sticks" has long been the practice of the police and prosecuting attorneys here and everywhere, with little respect for the intent of the particular laws in question.

 

[Urwumpe]

My point is that although 9/11 and the Patriot Act has made more people conscious of the word terrorism, "throwing the book and seeing what sticks" has long been the practice of the police and prosecuting attorneys here and everywhere, with little respect for the intent of the particular laws in question.

How did Pterry describe it: Everybody is guilty of something, it is the job of the police to find out what it is.

 

[insanity]

Since the offender appears to be English (or have I got that wrong?), how would AVSIM press their case? Hire a British lawyer and pursue it entirely within their system, under English law? Or since the crime and damage was done to an American firm, and to a server located on American soil (I'm presuming), does U.S. law apply? If so, would/could the accused be extradited to stand trial in the U.S.? Was the crime committed in England or America?

Clearly, I am completely ignorant of international law, especially as it applies to the borderless "interwebs."

Like I said, I don't know English law at all, but yes, the case will probably be tried in England as I'm sure it is against the law to use your internet connection to hack foreign websites. You won't see extradition for a case like this (unless the guy came to the U.S. with an outstanding subpoena; in which case he would probably have his case commuted to the English Courts as is the practice amongst most Western Nations).

You do raise a good point, no one really knows international law as it applies to the internet; probably because it does not entirely exist in a coherent fashion (see the pirate bay case).

 

[Usonian]

How did Pterry describe it: Everybody is guilty of something, it is the job of the police to find out what it is.

I might be OK with that, except I doubt that the police could be relied upon to include themselves amongst "everybody."

As for my extradition question, Ich bin ein grosse Dummkopf! If the offender was an American citizen the Brits could return him to his native country. I actually knew that.

 

[Andy44]

How did Pterry describe it: Everybody is guilty of something, it is the job of the police to find out what it is.

The commentator Bill Anderson wrote that when Rudy Gulliani was a prosecuter in New York he and his attornies used to play a game while out drinking, where they would pick a saintly public figure like Mother Theresa and try to come up with something to charge and convict her with. According to legend they never failed, since there are so many (bad) laws that everyone is essentially guilty of something no matter how law-abiding you think you are. It's just a matter of making the wrong enemy.

Drunken lawyers think this is funny.

 

[Urwumpe]

The commentator Bill Anderson wrote that when Rudy Gulliani was a prosecuter in New York he and his attornies used to play a game while out drinking, where they would pick a saintly public figure like Mother Theresa and try to come up with something to charge and convict her with. According to legend they never failed, since there are so many (bad) laws that everyone is essentially guilty of something no matter how law-abiding you think you are. It's just a matter of making the wrong enemy.

Drunken lawyers think this is funny.

The "joke" is much older. during the French Revolution an attorney already said "Show me three lines of the most innocent man on Earth, and I will find something to sentence him to death."

 

[Notebook]

Re extradtition to the USA, this case has been rumbling on for some time now. It has sort of become a test case for extradtion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8245159.stm

N.

 

[Usonian]

Re extradtition to the USA, this case has been rumbling on for some time now. It has sort of become a test case for extradtion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8245159.stm

N.

So a Brit who commits a crime via the internet, while sitting at a kezboard in Britain, can be extradited to the US. Unlike the AVSIM hack, I suppose this case does involve the Patriot Act.

In both cases, where did the crime occur - in the U.S.? in Britain? in the ether of the interwebs? All of the above? Does it matter anymore? Is it time for a World Union with a world-wide legal system - a United Nations with gravitas and clout? Will Britons start waving their birth certificates at town hall meetings while screaming, I want my country back!

Also, is this guy a brilliant hacker, or are the NASA and U.S. military computers made of tissue paper?

 

[Ghostrider]

The "joke" is much older. during the French Revolution an attorney already said "Show me three lines of the most innocent man on Earth, and I will find something to sentence him to death."

I believe the quote to be older than that, and attributed to none other than our old friend the Cardinal Richelieu.

 

[Urwumpe]

I believe the quote to be older than that, and attributed to none other than our old friend the Cardinal Richelieu.

Possible. I am not sure if it was Richelieu or Robespierre. Well, both had their sense of duty. Richelieu was not that evil as modern movies made him, though.

 

[StarLost]

Possible. I am not sure if it was Richelieu or Robespierre. Well, both had their sense of duty. Richelieu was not that evil as modern movies made him, though.

Richelieu was a man of his times, and worked within the system that he was presented with. He cannot be judged within the constraints of modern ethical thought as they simply don't apply to him or his situation.

The political system in which he worked, that of feudalism, supremacy of the Roman Catholic church and a heriditary monarchy allowed vast room for machinations that would not be acceptable today.

The only commonality he had with his modern colleagues (read Parliament, Congress, etc.) is "the end justifies the means" and "if a treaty stands in the way of what you want to do ... ignore it."