does most of the world really hate america

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Andy44

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First we brought you the web cam. Coming soon: Web robot! Allows physical interaction between combatants...er...forum members who say offensive things to each other. Adjustable for punch force, choking tolerance, and other parameters. Comes with or without white Mickey Mouse glove for added comedic value.

Yes, you too, can play Darth Vader and choke those who annoy you from afar!
 

GregBurch

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I don't understand what you are saying, sorry. I'll try to clarify. What I wrote was just what I have heard and experienced with some my fellow neighbors. It's quite disturbing and DANGEROUS that people actually seriously advocate some of the stuff I wrote down as examples.

I see. Well, I know some ignorant, chauvinistic people, too. The question is whether they are really representative or not. Apparently the BBC and similar outlets think they are -- that the kinds of people you describe are somehow revelatory of the "true American character."

A personal side-journey: I am an over-educated, hard-core atheist. But I live in one of those "red states" (oh, how I hate that they're called "red" -- truly Orwellian), and have to grit my teeth and simply face the fact that most Americans outside a few urban areas on the Left and Right coasts and a few college towns sprinkled in between are quite religious in one way or another. It's reality, and it's not going to change any time soon and, interestingly, I'm not at all sure I WANT it to change any longer (although I used to want it to, very much).

With that personal viewpoint explained, I've had to pay close attention to what impact American religious sentiment and the general lack of what I would consider to be decent education really mean for our culture and politics. It's very easy to find the most extreme and vocal advocates for putting religion into an explicitly powerful place in political life, and be utterly dismayed. It's certainly easy to be quite frightened by the general low level of education.

But when you look at the actual, practical impact that these most extreme views have on the actual functioning of our society and polity, one has to marvel at the wisdom of those fellows in Philadelphia 210 years ago. They built some really powerful bulwarks against the actual imposition of religion onto political reality, and they also crafted some very clever protections against the negative effects that an ignorant electorate could have on a society governed by a democratic republic. These mechanisms work so well, that their operation is often unnoticed. And they are so powerful that it is easily possible to drastically overstate the threats to them posed by people expressing the most extremely illiberal views.
 

simonpro

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I have blu-tac over my webcam (which is integrated into my laptop). Once spent a 7 hour plane flight with my webcam broadcasting whatever I did (mostly work, to be fair) to anyone on my MSN list. I hate webcams.

(edit)
Apparently the BBC and similar outlets think they are

Can you link to any BBC articles in which they show Americans in the light of the stereotypes discussed earlier? I've not found any. The BBC is normally too busy trying to make the European Union look bad to have any time to make the USA look bad.
 

Urwumpe

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I have blu-tac over my webcam (which is integrated into my laptop). Once spent a 7 hour plane flight with my webcam broadcasting whatever I did (mostly work, to be fair) to anyone on my MSN list. I hate webcams.

:rofl:

Does not happen to me, but I needed to buy a web-cam, after I bought my new graphic card. The graphics card has an analog video input, and appears as web-cam in MSN, without actually having something connected. So, hours after owning the new card, I got spammed by friends who wanted to see me.

I still hate it when some women want to just watch me on the web-cam, without having something to chat about. Since these experiences, I can't imagine owning an aquarium.
 

GregBurch

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Can you link to any BBC articles in which they show Americans in the light of the stereotypes discussed earlier? I've not found any. The BBC is normally too busy trying to make the European Union look bad to have any time to make the USA look bad.

Only time for a couple of quick links. I urge you to read these, even though you may flinch from material from such "right-wing" sources:

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/guest/2006/ra_11201.shtml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/05/12/do1201.xml

When you see the sources of these items, it's important to consider that reporting on the BBC's left-wing, anti-American bias is unlikely to get much play in outlets like the Guardian.

On a personal note, I listen to the BBC news service as often as I can -- probably once or twice a week. I'd say not a time goes by when I listen to it that I'm not struck by this bias, and I often laugh out loud at it as I'm driving to work.
 

ar81

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I do separate people and politicians.
I have American friends, European Friends, Asian friends.
They are people.

If I was judged by the actions of some politicians in my country, you would have a bad opinion about me.
I would hate to be judged by their acts, specially when their actions also brought bad things to my country.

I figure out that Americans might feel the same.
I do not hate anyone.

However I can say that in Latin America there is some antiUS ideology.
Most of remarkable intellectuals seem to bash US.
It wasn't until the late 1990s that I got to find evidence that allowed me to question their conculsions.

The bad thing about blaming USA for poverty in Latin America is that it makes population blind about the real cause of poverty: Their own local politicians.
So I think blaming USA is politically convenient for Latin American leaders, so they do what they please, while USA sends international aid that makes them rich and money keeps them as "allies" in the geopolitical game.
 

legios

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Likewise, I will address your points in order
1. Germany is not responsible for the fall of the Western Roman Empire. First of all, there was no Germany around at that time. Second the Germanic mercenaries whose revolt ended the western roman empire had only been able to succeed, because the western roman empire was already weakened from with in - the mercenaries became more powerful as their employers.
This was really written as a joke. Though the constant pressure of ethnic germanic tribes didn't help.

2. The first world war is not Germanies blame... at least not in modern political history. That Germany was alone to blame was the political result of the treaty of Versailles, which as most people should know, was mostly meant as revenge by the French for the foundation of the German Empire in Versailles. The real cause was a long phase of international tensions which discharged into the first world war, with the German Emperor (A really stupid guy, before you claim that GWB is stupid, read about him, his father was far wiser) being one major actor in the creation of the tensions.
What! The 1883 Treaty of Versailles was forced on the French by the victorious Prussian Empire, and the burden was carried by the French, not the Prussians. Yes it did lead to tensions, but it was the French that wanted revenge. Yet in spite of that, it was the Germans that invaded France.

3. No questions on the second world war. But the number of deaths was not alone done by Germany - Stalins purges also happened during the time (Guess why the losses of human life in the soviet army was so high), Japan acted mostly independend of Germany.
Yes, but Germany was the principle starter of WWII. And Stalin would never had been in power if the WWI German invasion of Russia hadn't destabilized the Tsarist government.

4. Read the article I had already posted: German received less money over the Marshal plan, than it had to pay to the US or the other allies by other treaties. "Made in Germany" had more effects on the German recovery as the Marshal plan.
First, the US gave billions of dollars in aid to Germany, most of which was used to buy food and supplies for reconstruction since Germany no longer had the capital or credit to inport supplies.

And as I said before, but now I'll quote, " The political effects of the Marshall Plan may have been just as important as the economic ones. Marshall Plan aid allowed the nations of Western Europe to relax austerity measures and rationing, reducing discontent and bringing political stability. The communist influence on Western Europe was greatly reduced, and throughout the region communist parties faded in popularity in the years after the Marshall Plan"

5. The Berlin airlift was a great venture and great service of allied pilots, but when the Berlin population would have resigned, the whole project would have failed anyway (That's why Clay ensured before the airlift started, that the Berlin population will stand behind the plan). It did save Berlin, and the willpower of Berlin citizens made sure that the west won the first battle of the cold war. When Berlin capitulated, Stalin would have gained more power over Europe and the allies would have lost influence.
If the airlift did not go, then the Berliners would have given in. It's all about heirarchy of needs, and food trumps political ideology. Noone can eat willpower.

6. The USA did not do anything to end the GDR - this happened only because of two factors - The soviet leader Gorbachev did no longer support the GDR government's politics and the economic situation, together with the uprising of the people in the GDR made it impossible to go on. There was no US pressure on the GDR government, and I am sure, any kind of pressure from outside the warsaw pact could have failed the whole venture. What ended the German Division was the will of the people - which many politicians in the last decade already acknowledged.
1. If the US and the allies hadn't stopped them, the USSR would have annexed all of Germany.

2. If the US hadn't stationed troops in the FRG, then the USSR probably would have made a play to unite Germany under the GDR flag.

3. If the US hadn't greatly weakened the USSR through the cold war, then when GDR tried to break down the wall and unite the germany's, they would have been trampled by T-72s just like Czechoslovakia.

4. Thus, the US contributed GREATLY to the demise of the GDR.


7. Is sure not different in the USA, which have similar problems with getting enough volunteers for the conflicts.

Actually, getting volunteers has not been the problem. The problem is getting experienced troops to stay on.


-----Posted Added-----


What a wonderful place Internet is: people can say each other every :censored:t without a risk of getting one's jaw broken in an instant! :dry:


Did I day something not true? I would gladly say this to that gentleman's face as well. I assure you my good friend that I am pretty handy in a fight.
 

fort

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Simonpro :
Quoting Gregburch:
"...that the image of America that is portrayed in popular European media is extremely negative"
[/Quoting]

Simonpro :

"That's just rubbish. Plain and simple. I don't know what European media you've been reading but it sure as heck isn't anything I, nor any people I know, would be reading."

I agree.It's the second time that week that i read some comment like that from you Gregburch. Referring to: The Guardian, Le Monde...and i do not really know where you find such so negative papers in that newspapers, Le Monde, at least, concerning the United States. Do i am so much anti american, atrabilaire, misanthrope, that i'm not able, sensible, to criticism against american people ?

"An interesting fact that seems to come out of these discussions is that each side is very sensitive to the negative caricature of their own society that gets publicized on the other side, but seem to be unable to perceive that the same kind ...".

Really not, really.I do not really care about caricatures concerning the country where i live. I'm born there. I could be born in many others places. If my "neighbors" have things interesting to say, sometimes, they should be rather keep silent And the richness is everywhere. As i've nothing to do with, by example, Bullethead's comments. I let it with it's certainty. Are Europeans inferiors to Americain ? Maybe. And if it was the case. What else ? It is not the time wich passes, it's us.


-----Posted Added-----


Did I day something not true?

"...true.."

What is it?


-----Posted Added-----


And Stalin would never had been in power if the WWI German invasion of Russia hadn't destabilized the Tsarist government.
Or if Grouchy had rejoined in time the Napoléoniennes troops in Waterloo.

:lol:
 

Urwumpe

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What! The 1883 Treaty of Versailles was forced on the French by the victorious Prussian Empire, and the burden was carried by the French, not the Prussians. Yes it did lead to tensions, but it was the French that wanted revenge. Yet in spite of that, it was the Germans that invaded France.

No, you forget the 1918 treaty. ;) Which was pretty much the German reason for World war 2, at least from the point of creating a national agreement, that Germany was treated bad by the winning nations.

The 1883 treaty of Versailles was actually still harmless, as it paid attention on the balance of power, which the later treaty ignored - but the concept of the balance of power also caused WW1, when a few nations tried to violate it.

First, the US gave billions of dollars in aid to Germany, most of which was used to buy food and supplies for reconstruction since Germany no longer had the capital or credit to inport supplies.

Yes, exactly 5 billions all together finally. And the allies got 2.4 billion USD every year from the western German government for their military presence and protection. You should not forget the Morgenthau plan. Most of the money of the German Marshal plan was actually needed for repairing the damage done by the Morgenthau plan.

1. If the US and the allies hadn't stopped them, the USSR would have annexed all of Germany.

2. If the US hadn't stationed troops in the FRG, then the USSR probably would have made a play to unite Germany under the GDR flag.

3. If the US hadn't greatly weakened the USSR through the cold war, then when GDR tried to break down the wall and unite the germany's, they would have been trampled by T-72s just like Czechoslovakia.

4. Thus, the US contributed GREATLY to the demise of the GDR.

1. And the USSR would have gained another advantage in the cold war. Which was also not acceptable for the US. Don't forget this situation. There was already an interest in a large German buffer zone between the warsaw pact and the western powers long before the NATO got founded and Germany made NATO member.

2. See 1, as it is not changing the situation. Also, don't forget the NATO defense plan, which was active as long as there had been no second strike ICBMs. It basically meant: For protecting UK and France, and for giving the USA time to react, Germany should be build into a large delaying force against the warsaw pact. Germany could never win against the whole warsaw pact alone, but it could pin the warsaw pact forces inside Germany and far away from NATO bases. When the war goes nuclear after a few weeks, Germany should be turned into a nuclear wasteland by tactical ballistic missiles, for the sake of destroying also the majority of the warsaw pact forces. The Russian ICBMs should be neutralized by the fact of the missile gap - Russia had far less ICBMs in the early 1960s as the USA.

3. The Prague Spring got crushed under the Breshnev doctrine, which was no longer active under Gorbachev. Also, a uprising in the GDR got crushed by the soviet troops already in 1953 without the USA coming to help them, for not risking a direct confrontation.

Where would the US troops have been in 1989, if the soviet union decided to interfere again? Without the large amount of diplomacy happening past the GDR government by German, US and Soviet Union officials, the situation would have possibly looked different. And I am not talking about what Ronny said in the years before but what George Bush did not say loud when he was president. Before the western German government started direct talks with the GDR, there had already been long consultations with the soviet union.

4. Don't overestimate it - just as much as I should also not underestimate it. Without the USA, western Germany would have been likely part of the GDR, and this Germany itself likely either a permanent trouble spot in the soviet union or a powerful ally of soviet russia. The GDR was already the primary external source of high technology for the USSR. Even if the GDR government did not support this demand in their shortsightedness.

But also, don't underestimate the role, western Germany had in Europe, NATO and the UN, especially as ally for the USA in the cold war.
 

simonpro

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Did I day something not true?

Yes, this:
The EU recognized the independence of Boznia from Yugoslavia before the US

Recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina was granted jointly by the US and EC on the same day, April 7th 1992 I think.



Greg, no time to read your links just now. Going out, I haven't forgotten them though and will respond tomorrow.
 

legios

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No, you forget the 1918 treaty. ;) Which was pretty much the German reason for World war 2, at least from the point of creating a national agreement, that Germany was treated bad by the winning nations.

The 1883 treaty of Versailles was actually still harmless, as it paid attention on the balance of power, which the later treaty ignored - but the concept of the balance of power also caused WW1, when a few nations tried to violate it.
I'll agree, the 1918 treaty's heavy handed approach was pig headed, and I can see how it would cause another war.

1. And the USSR would have gained another advantage in the cold war. Which was also not acceptable for the US. Don't forget this situation. There was already an interest in a large German buffer zone between the warsaw pact and the western powers long before the NATO got founded and Germany made NATO member.

2. See 1, as it is not changing the situation. Also, don't forget the NATO defense plan, which was active as long as there had been no second strike ICBMs. It basically meant: For protecting UK and France, and for giving the USA time to react, Germany should be build into a large delaying force against the warsaw pact. Germany could never win against the whole warsaw pact alone, but it could pin the warsaw pact forces inside Germany and far away from NATO bases. When the war goes nuclear after a few weeks, Germany should be turned into a nuclear wasteland by tactical ballistic missiles, for the sake of destroying also the majority of the warsaw pact forces. The Russian ICBMs should be neutralized by the fact of the missile gap - Russia had far less ICBMs in the early 1960s as the USA.
I never said we protected the FRG for altruistic reasons. Countries don't have friends...only interests.

where would the US troops have been in 1989, if the soviet union decided to interfere again? Without the large amount of diplomacy happening past the GDR government by German, US and Soviet Union officials, the situation would have possibly looked different. And I am not talking about what Ronny said in the years before but what George Bush did not say loud when he was president. Before the western German government started direct talks with the GDR, there had already been long consultations with the soviet union.
That is a very good question. What would have Bush senior done? Reagan would have responded (and probably have killed us all), but Bush I don't know.

4. Don't overestimate it - just as much as I should also not underestimate it. Without the USA, western Germany would have been likely part of the GDR, and this Germany itself likely either a permanent trouble spot in the soviet union or a powerful ally of soviet russia. The GDR was already the primary external source of high technology for the USSR. Even if the GDR government did not support this demand in their shortsightedness.

But also, don't underestimate the role, western Germany had in Europe, NATO and the UN, especially as ally for the USA in the cold war.
My friend, I think we just found a point where we can agree. Let's grab a beer (preferably a German one), and shake on it.
 

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I agree.It's the second time that week that i read some comment like that from you Gregburch. Referring to: The Guardian, Le Monde...and i do not really know where you find such so negative papers in that newspapers, Le Monde, at least, concerning the United States. Do i am so much anti american, atrabilaire, misanthrope, that i'm not able, sensible, to criticism against american people ?

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.17764/article_detail.asp

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/

http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/35885/view?viewtype

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3934516.ece

http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/archives/004260.html

Please at least consider the possibility that an anti-American attitude in some elements of the media might be so prevalent that it actually becomes hard to detect, a background so all-pervasive that it escapes conscious notice.
 

legios

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Yes, this:


Recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina was granted jointly by the US and EC on the same day, April 7th 1992 I think.



Greg, no time to read your links just now. Going out, I haven't forgotten them though and will respond tomorrow.

I stand corrected. I thought the US was a day later, but you are right.
 

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Did I day something not true? I would gladly say this to that gentleman's face as well. I assure you my good friend that I am pretty handy in a fight.

He said one not especially smart thing about America. You effectively said that he was a murderer - because of his nationality. That's what I call low. And let's not forget that Srebrennitsa happened not without a cause. Serbs just weren't as good at PR war as their opponents.
 

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http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/archives/004260.html

Please at least consider the possibility that an anti-American attitude in some elements of the media might be so prevalent that it actually becomes hard to detect, a background so all-pervasive that it escapes conscious notice.


Gregburch,
I download them and I read them. I go dinner now but I would say to you what I think. I do not believe that your argument is without reality.
 

tl8

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Sorry Guys

This thread is getting a bit too heated for some members.

Thread Locked

O-F Team
 
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