Economist Debates: Returning to the Moon

Humans should return to the moon

  • Yes

    Votes: 41 91.1%
  • No

    Votes: 4 8.9%

  • Total voters
    45

cjp

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Yes, but:
I don't see the point in sending human beings, except for building a colony that is economically independent from organizations on earth.

Having outposts outside earth is a good thing, to expand our territory, take some pressure away from earth's resources, and protect us against extinction in case of a global emergency. The rest is mostly a waste of money, especially with robots becoming increasingly better.
 

agentgonzo

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Is this in a timeframe, or just in general? I vote yes, we should return to the moon. I don't think that there's a lot to be gained from sending a human to the moon in this century though - apart from the romance of it.

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

Also, economists should stay out of science.
 

ar81

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It all depends on premises.
When digital watches were invented in Switzerland, clock manufacturers saw no future or profit. They thought they had about 100 years of experience in the clock market.
 

insanity

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It depends on the goals of the mission. However, I'm more inclined to think that human space-flight is a giant waste of money and time... money and time that we could be spending to make our own planet a little bit better.
 

the.punk

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I vote yes. But it depends one the goal. Building a base would be a goal.
 

wehaveaproblem

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I vote yes, but it should be international, multi-national, collaborative. The human race needs to start thinking of itself as such, rather than as seperate tribes, and needs goals and great achievement/advancement to reflect that.

That said, insanity makes a point about cost. It is bloody expensive. But there is plenty of money in the human money-pot, it's just badly managed and in-equally spread. We have the funds and resources to do both - sort the planet and explore beyond. But like I say... tribes.
 

ar81

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I vote yes, but it should be international, multi-national, collaborative. The human race needs to start thinking of itself as such, rather than as seperate tribes, and needs goals and great achievement/advancement to reflect that.

That said, insanity makes a point about cost. It is bloody expensive. But there is plenty of money in the human money-pot, it's just badly managed and in-equally spread. We have the funds and resources to do both - sort the planet and explore beyond. But like I say... tribes.

There is a way to get the extra money. 1 billion people are starved, poor. Give them a job, they will contribute to raise GDP, and you may have 1 billion extra customers. Collect taxes, and you will have a huge boost in world economy, enough to fund any hyperexpensive multinational project. The key is to get rid of world poverty.
 

ijuin

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I always love the folks who say that spaceflight is a waste of money while cheering the expenditure of twenty or more times NASA's annual budget on their pet cause (Corporate bailouts, military defense against enemies we don't have, etc.).
 

Linguofreak

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I always love the folks who say that spaceflight is a waste of money while cheering the expenditure of twenty or more times NASA's annual budget on their pet cause (Corporate bailouts,

Amen!

military defense against enemies we don't have, etc.).

I'm not sure we don't have enemies, but the big problem is that our defense budget isn't directed at the parts of the military that really need it. (Which kinda goes against the grain to admit for me, since I like the parts of the military that are getting more funding than they need)

And then there's Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, corporate and individual welfare (I suppose corporate welfare fits under bailouts, or vice versa)... The programs in the last sentence make up about half of the federal budget, and, while (mostly) noble in their goals, are failing to accomplish those goals and bankrupting the government in the process.

But I do generally agree that, whatever the pet project under discussion, the people who will advocate slashing NASA's budget while trying to get money spent on their own personal money hog are... annoying.

---------- Post added at 01:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 AM ----------

It depends on the goals of the mission. However, I'm more inclined to think that human space-flight is a giant waste of money and time... money and time that we could be spending to make our own planet a little bit better.

It doesn't waste that much money compared to the total size of the federal budget (about half a percent, or 15 cents per taxpayer per day), and in any case, large quantities of money don't really tend to do much towards making the planet better. In fact, if history is any indicator, money really tends to cause more problems than it solves. The time factor is more of an issue as far as making the planet a better place, but NASA takes up an even lower percentage of the man-hours the nation has on its hands than it takes up money.

Plus, so many of us in this country, rich or poor, do nothing but sit on our buts all day watching reality TV or bumming around on internet forums. ;) This nation is really, really bored and needs an inspiring goal, which would help make the planet better by giving people something to actually care about. Plus, since it is such an expensive project, it could be done much more easily internationally, which would give a great opportunity for international cooperation and the easing of tensions, which could do alot to make the world a better place in and of itself.
 

Urwumpe

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We won't ever get economic travel to the moon and beyond, if we don't start traveling. The more we wait the more chances to discover useful breakthroughs will pass.
 

SiberianTiger

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Quoting Boris Chertok's speech made on Jan 26-30, 2009 in the course of the 33th Korolev's Academical Readings, here are the two snippets about the Moon and Mars (the original article can be found at http://tvroscosmos.ru/frm/zhurnal/chertok.php).

What the spaceflight will be like in 2101?

Introduction - skipped
World states and the spaceflight - skipped
GEO development - skipped
Space warfare - skipped

The Moon

In 1986 the USA Congress and President created a national Committee that would develop the long term national space strategy for the nearest 50 years. This Committee's primary recommendation was building a permanent habitable base on the Moon in the 1st decade of the century 21.

This first decade is nearly over, but the Americans haven't begun building their Lunar base yet. At the moment, it is announced that space ships that can support building the base will appear before 2020. My personal opinion is that the USA are capable to build a Lunar base on their own, and if they do embark on this, the real beginning of works might happen in 2015. The building loop of a base that will be able to support 8 to 12 people on the Moon's surface will take them 8 to 10 years.

Russia did have plots for a Lunar base in the past. We jokingly called it 'Barmingrad' which means Barmin's City by the name of its chief designer. Building on the Moon won't require any new scientific discoveries. The contemporary technology can colonize the Moon quite well. However, any nation that would want to get such an outpost will face certain social, political, economical and international problems.

Minding that, it's safe to predict that Russia won't be able to build its own Lunar base for at least 20 years from now. Such a project can only see light if it turns to a nation-wide program targeted for many years of duration, exceeding in scale turning Sochi region to a Winter Olympic Games host and a resort no worse than French Riviera. Perhaps China will build their base about 5 years earlier than Russia. The 4th colonizer of the Moon will be India. Not very likely, but possible is collaboration between Russia and Europe for building the Lunar outpost. We can see a lively example of a similar joining of the technological and economical means, which is the ISS.

Unlike the ISS, Lunar bases can have triple purpose: scientific, industrial and military.

Making the joint entire Earth's Lunar colony is only possible if we overcome dividing the world into military and political blocks.

Knowing the possible strategic value of the Moon, it cannot be ruled out that the NATO block countries will unite their efforts on that. Joining the leading countries of Europe with the USA may help reaching the Lunar programmes' goals 3 to 5 years sooner.

The Moon is a territory belonging to Planet Earth. The Moon is a planet where people can live using the local resources. It is reachable for the Humanity with help of contemporary technology.

Last 3 or 4 billion years the Moon was bound to the Earth by the celestial mechanics laws only. In the century 21 we will get to bound them together with a reliable transportation system both for technology freights and the constantly active two-sided manned flight route.

The NATO will persist through the 1st half of the century, but other military blocks will appear too. For every such block, in case of a 'Star Wars' scenario there will be a temptation to ensure their own 'Space Superiority' by building at the visible side of the Moon a military installation filled with powerful ray and wide band pulse weapons. Future optical and radar systems will allow constant monitoring of everything that happens on Earth's surface, in the sea, air and near space. During military conflicts the Lunar bases will be able to strike first, taking out enemy's nuclear missile facilities.

The world's astronomy and astrophysics will benefit greatly from building observatories on the back side of the Moon. The Moon itself will serve as a screen blocking the observatory from Earth-sourced noises which hamper sensitivity of the contemporary ground-based instruments. Radio observatories on the back side of the Moon will be outfitted with great scale parabolic mirrors and phased array sensors. All the SETI enthusiasts will get much greater opportunities than they have today.

Mars

Today's Mass media, and sometimes famous scientists and politicians say that the nearest decades will see manned Martian expeditions. Flying of people to Mars are declared the mainstream of the 21th century's spaceflight not only by Mars fanatics, but also by some statesmen. It should be admitted that from the technology point of view, flying of people to Mars will be possible in the century 21. However, it's not easy to prove that manned expeditions should be the primary part of the promising plans for the close future.

Indeed, what's the point in investing no less than $300-500 billion, paying for labour of many thousands workers, engineers, scientists if the remote controlled robots are already able to answer every question the people of Earth would like to get an answer to? Automatic Mars satellites, rovers that travel across the surface have already reliably proven that Mars surface has no life on it. Before the end of the century I expect no less than 8 to 10 more advanced rovers to arrive on Mars. They will study the planet's atmosphere, soil and climate dynamics, not having to rush anywhere. The new information will be acquired without putting lives of people to great risk.

Cosmonauts of a Martian expedition would have to spend almost a year in a zero-g environment just on their way there. Immediately after landing, they will have to begin preparing for the even riskier back trip (unlike on the LEO missions, the Earth will not be able to help them in any way). It is my strong conviction that flying of people to Mars in the century 21 will be possible, but not necessary. The ambitious goal won't pay off the huge expenses and risk. However, there are some projects that propose sending to Mars expeditions not a 6-12 persons group, but thousands of men and women. Are you asking, why?

Inevitable global catastrophes (climate change, nuclear war, a huge meteorite fall) will result in quick Earth's civilization degradation or complete vanishing the way dinosaurs have extinct. The Humanity will be obliterated. So that's why Chinese scientists have proposed their contingency plan. Chinese civilisation will have to survive in a reservation on Mars. Before the possible end of the entire Humanity China will get to create a settlement on Mars which would be able to sustain lives of no less than 1000 people. They will bring life supporting technology and the means of future returning to Earth with them.

The planet Mars is not human habitable. But there is simply nothing better in the Solar System. After waiting for the conditions on Earth becoming hospitable again, the Martian Chinese will begin returning to Earth (that happens long after centuries 21 and 22). The Humanity begins spreading again. But the entire planet and the technology keeping civilization at it will be Chinese.

This project of saving the Humanity was published by certain very serious and competent Chinese scientists. Every American, Russian and other known projects of a Mars expedition is a mere amateur's air trembling compared to that. The question is, however, how long it will take China to begin colonizing Mars? I believe it may happen no sooner than at the end of century 23.

Revolutionary discoveries - skipped
The least possibility prediction - skipped
 

Chode

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I sincerely hope that no one is taking these rantings seriously.

Regards
 

Chode

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I agree with about 50% of the arguement, but this part seems to be a bit fanciful:

Inevitable global catastrophes (climate change, nuclear war, a huge meteorite fall) will result in quick Earth's civilization degradation or complete vanishing the way dinosaurs have extinct. The Humanity will be obliterated. So that's why Chinese scientists have proposed their contingency plan. Chinese civilisation will have to survive in a reservation on Mars. Before the possible end of the entire Humanity China will get to create a settlement on Mars which would be able to sustain lives of no less than 1000 people. They will bring life supporting technology and the means of future returning to Earth with them.

The planet Mars is not human habitable. But there is simply nothing better in the Solar System. After waiting for the conditions on Earth becoming hospitable again, the Martian Chinese will begin returning to Earth (that happens long after centuries 21 and 22). The Humanity begins spreading again. But the entire planet and the technology keeping civilization at it will be Chinese.

This project of saving the Humanity was published by certain very serious and competent Chinese scientists. Every American, Russian and other known projects of a Mars expedition is a mere amateur's air trembling compared to that. The question is, however, how long it will take China to begin colonizing Mars? I believe it may happen no sooner than at the end of century 23.

and the part about lunar bases "taking out" defenses.


Regards
 

SiberianTiger

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Yep, it's a pity that there is no reference to the Chinese source here. I believe one may exist somewhere, though. Or maybe, it is a kind of an old man's joke directed at the young generations... A way to give a mental incentive for activity. In this case it might not be entirely true.
 

Chode

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I disagree with this entirely (actually quite amusing):
Inevitable global catastrophes (climate change, nuclear war, a huge meteorite fall) will result in quick Earth's civilization degradation or complete vanishing the way dinosaurs have extinct. The Humanity will be obliterated. So that's why Chinese scientists have proposed their contingency plan. Chinese civilisation will have to survive in a reservation on Mars. Before the possible end of the entire Humanity China will get to create a settlement on Mars which would be able to sustain lives of no less than 1000 people. They will bring life supporting technology and the means of future returning to Earth with them.

And also this (even more amusing)

The planet Mars is not human habitable. But there is simply nothing better in the Solar System. After waiting for the conditions on Earth becoming hospitable again, the Martian Chinese will begin returning to Earth (that happens long after centuries 21 and 22). The Humanity begins spreading again. But the entire planet and the technology keeping civilization at it will be Chinese.

This project of saving the Humanity was published by certain very serious and competent Chinese scientists. Every American, Russian and other known projects of a Mars expedition is a mere amateur's air trembling compared to that. The question is, however, how long it will take China to begin colonizing Mars? I believe it may happen no sooner than at the end of century 23.

Regards
 

SiberianTiger

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I think we can't predict what may happen in 200 or more years from now (aside from extrapolating some slow pace processes we see going on). However, it's not too early to start thinking how and what's purpose for we can use the Moon, Mars, etc. The described 'contingency colony' is just one thing that can possibly find some justification for today.

Try to figure out some better reasons for putting effort into colonizing the planets of Solar System.

Note that my own opinion on that is a bit different from Chertok's. We must develop a space based and space resources consuming industry before endeavouring on a colonization. This is something that the contemporary technology still lacks.
 
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