Challenge Finesse your lunar landings.

[dgatsoulis]

Hi all, finally got back to Orbiter, wanted something quick & dirty and was reminded of this on the forum, which I'd actually downloaded long ago! First of all thanks a lot for the great challenge, it's always good to test your skills and is perfect for improving my landing techniques. After a couple of fails; piling onto, and landing on the BB tower?:facepalm:I had a few successes and was a little shocked to see it would appear that I made pole position! (Deltaglider) The flight wasn't perfect, there's still a few DV's to save, and it wasn't fully manual; major respect for your (dgatsoulis) flying skills that I've seen in some videos!

Semi-automated descent & landing using:
IMFD Map -don't know a more accurate PeA readout over distance
IMFD Orbit Insert -most accurate/economical circularize burn AP?(when it works?)
Hover MFD 1.1.0 -braking guidance, attitude control, linear course correction, and final touchdown.
Came screeching in just a few meters over the crater walls and let her drop as fast as I could dare!

I welcome a revenge! and look forward to future challenges (+/other). Always appreciative of the efforts from the Orbiter Community.
P.S. please just use the one top score (it's probably only one entry per person anyway, right?) even if just for the personal pride of seeing my name amongst the famous (dgatsoulis, blixel).
P.P.S. A very big, and very belated thankyou to all on the IMS thread for the extremely warm welcome I received; the antispamfirstpostdelay threw me off track and reallife distractions did the rest, hope to get a look at that soon too!

Huh, that was funny. This post wasn't visible until after I responded to Koloss. Probably because you are a new member on the forums, so welcome!

Really nice score on the default DG. :thumbup:
Doesn't matter if it wasn't fully manual, APs are acceptable.
I leave it to the pilots to find out for themselves with which way they feel more comfortable and also which gives them the most satisfaction.
Even the best AP in the world cannot correct a bad approach without wasting some dV.

Scoreboard updated.

 

[Koloss]

Sh*t. As if it wasn't enough that I crashed the ship, the onboard voice says "Warning: Gear is up" into the post-crash silence.

I'm wiping my tears now and try it again :lol:

Edit: BTW dgatsoulis, who spoke that welcome message? It sounds like an American Radio commercial :lol: (I mean... I imagine an American Radio commercial sounding like that)

 

[dgatsoulis]

Edit: BTW dgatsoulis, who spoke that welcome message? It sounds like an American Radio commercial :lol: (I mean... I imagine an American Radio commercial sounding like that)

It was an online text-to-speech site. I don't have the link right now, but I think it was oddcast.

 

[Buck Rogers]

Here's one for the Shuttle-A: not an easy bird to fly; run out of RCS twice! DV: 2826.5
and the DGIV DV: 2509
Thanks again, having fun, after a bit more training I might even try to back-flip an XR5 on a approach to Wideawake and land it in reverse, on the spot, in the hangar!?! Who would think of doing something like that?
http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?p=163712&postcount=319
On second thought maybe it's not such a good idea. How long did you train for that? How do you control the thrust/hover; joystick/keyboard or some fancy cyborg implant? AP? or fully manual?
Would be very interested in the tailsitter version (remember having some close calls doing the 2001 Aries-moon trip), was it indefinitely postponed?

 

[Koloss]

Arrr, darn you, Buck Rogers! :lol: Just kidding, nice score!

dgatsoulis, you should add the Arrow Freighter to this challenge!

 

[boogabooga]

FYI, and I am not accusing anyone of anything, but two popular antivirus programs delete/"quarantine" the lua that comes with this on every scan.

People may net to set an exemption.

 

[blixel]

dgatsoulis, you should add the Arrow Freighter to this challenge!

Try this zip file attachment and see if it works. The zip file is stored in the same directory hierarchy format as the original challenge. So just close Orbiter, unzip this into your main Orbiter directory, and then reopen Orbiter and launch the Arrow Freighter scenario.

You have to touch down on a landing pad though. I'm not 100% certain how that will work since the Arrow Freighter is bigger than the landing pad. Maybe it just has to be centered over the pad?

Notes for dgatsoulis: Since the Arrow Freighter doesn't have a separate RCS tank, I made a copy of the DG.lua and took out the references to the RCS tank. (hp1, m2, and m2a). I then used the scenario editor to figure out how much fuel mass was required to get exactly 3,000 m/s worth of dV in the Arrow Freighter, and I set that as the PRPLEVEL in the scenario file. Did I miss anything?

 

[dgatsoulis]

Here's one for the Shuttle-A: not an easy bird to fly; run out of RCS twice! DV: 2826.5
and the DGIV DV: 2509

Excellent scores Buck. Thanks for starting out the Shuttle-A scoreboard. Funny, I was under the impression that the Shuttle-A would do better than any other ship, because one can tilt the hover engines to help with the braking burn. Less burn-time→less grav. losses.
On the other hand... the DGIV does have the turbopump... :hmm:

-Scoreboard updated.

How long did you train for that? How do you control the thrust/hover; joystick/keyboard or some fancy cyborg implant? AP? or fully manual?

A few posts up in the Orbiter Video thread, me and Keith had a little friendly competion using the XRs and performing some stunts. So I had learned how to perform that maneuver over a runway. Going directly for a hangar seemed like a good idea. I was on the final approach after a Moon-Earth journey, with very little fuel loaded on the Vanguard. I made a quicksave and I got it on the 6th or 7th attempt.
It was a combination of extreme CoG shift, XR APs and manual override.

Would be very interested in the tailsitter version (remember having some close calls doing the 2001 Aries-moon trip), was it indefinitely postponed?

Can't make any promises because tailsitters turned out to be more work than I thought. For the spacecrafts already in the challenge it takes only one script and then slight adjustments to fit each vessel.
Tailsitters are a different ball game. Others are oriented "upright" and use hover engines and others along the Z axis and use main engines. Add to that the fact that almost all use different tanks and ISPs for the RCS system and it gets difficult to make a uniform script to encompass all the vessels.
I might do a shorter version with 3 ships, after all tailsitters are more fun and challenging to land.
That one will have to be with no landing APs though.

dgatsoulis, you should add the Arrow Freighter to this challenge!

That one needs a completely different setup. The RCS system alone might use a good fraction of the budget, simply to orient the vessel.

Since the Arrow Freighter doesn't have a separate RCS tank, I made a copy of the DG.lua and took out the references to the RCS tank. (hp1, m2, and m2a). I then used the scenario editor to figure out how much fuel mass was required to get exactly 3,000 m/s worth of dV in the Arrow Freighter, and I set that as the PRPLEVEL in the scenario file. Did I miss anything?

That sounds about right. But you'll probably need to "up" the budget because of the overpowered RCS and perform a "perfect flight" to test it.

I'll have a look over the weekend, together with the tailsitters.

 

[Buck Rogers]

Thanks for the extensive answers.

Excellent scores Buck. Thanks for starting out the Shuttle-A scoreboard. Funny, I was under the impression that the Shuttle-A would do better than any other ship, because one can tilt the hover engines to help with the braking burn. Less burn-time→less grav. losses.
On the other hand... the DGIV does have the turbopump... :hmm:

-Scoreboard updated.

That's what I thought too, but then you have no Retro, which I didn't initially intend to use, but RCS is very slow, and the tilt too, and so I left it as it was!
Totally forgot about the turbopump; don't know if it was engaged or not?

A few posts up in the Orbiter Video thread, me and Keith had a little friendly competion using the XRs and performing some stunts. So I had learned how to perform that maneuver over a runway. Going directly for a hangar seemed like a good idea. I was on the final approach after a Moon-Earth journey, with very little fuel loaded on the Vanguard. I made a quicksave and I got it on the 6th or 7th attempt.
It was a combination of extreme CoG shift, XR APs and manual override.

All I can say is :tiphat:

Can't make any promises because tailsitters turned out to be more work than I thought. For the spacecrafts already in the challenge it takes only one script and then slight adjustments to fit each vessel.
Tailsitters are a different ball game. Others are oriented "upright" and use hover engines and others along the Z axis and use main engines. Add to that the fact that almost all use different tanks and ISPs for the RCS system and it gets difficult to make a uniform script to encompass all the vessels.
I might do a shorter version with 3 ships, after all tailsitters are more fun and challenging to land.
That one will have to be with no landing APs though.

Like the idea of the shorter version. I remember some pretty hairy manual landings with the 2001 Aries, attitude hold was a nightmare!

Knocked up a score for the XR5 too, is it better to attach the pictures per gallery?

But, I found a bug!
I decided to try landing a DG with a vanilla Orbiter setup; only standard AP's (Prograde etc...) and MFD's (Vtol, Map). I found that with the right setup and a little override HoverMFD pretty much does the job for you, it's not very economical so I use it as a guide for manual corrections and the AP's as little as possible, but it's not that difficult and so I wanted to see how my form is doing a landing Old School style, like way back then as I first learned it.
After a couple of miserable fails (having HLevel as the only AP makes for a lot of work!), success, a relatively smooth(?) rolling landing.
I noticed a few seconds before touchdown DV remaining was ~126, after the congratulations it said I'd only used (totally absurd!) DV: 2006.4!
The only thing I did differently was that before I always did the scenario from the beginning to the end, this time I used a quicksave; hadn't noticed (the yellow text is hidden behind the green text) but on reloading could see DV used was 0.
DV left was correct on loading but the DV used wasn't updated, don't know if it's to do with the LUA? ... just had a quick look: shouldn't DV_start be non-variable?
Looking forward to some scary tailsitting!

 

[dgatsoulis]

Totally forgot about the turbopump; don't know if it was engaged or not?

If you have to ask, then it wasn't engaged. You definitely know when the turbopump has been engaged.

Knocked up a score for the XR5 too, is it better to attach the pictures per gallery?

Bring it over here, so I can put it on the scoreboard. Preferably the pic itself, not a thumbnail. (That's just me).
In addition, you can tell a bit about the method you used and the difficulties you encountered with that ship, if you want.
It's not mandatory, but I like to think that the purpose of these challenges is to help people learn. Playbacks, videos and/or detailed descriptions are always welcome.

But, I found a bug! ..{snip} ...(totally absurd!) DV: 2006.4!...{snip}...this time I used a quicksave...

Not really a bug.
This challenge is set so that it needs to be done in one session. If you pick it up from a save you get the "absurd" result.
The main reason is to show that the selection of the altitude at which to perform the LOI burn plays a major part in the Delta-V usage. So both the LOI and the PDL need to happen in one session. If you simply pick it up from a save and practise just the landing, it is easy to forget the role the LOI burn played.

hadn't noticed (the yellow text is hidden behind the green text)

:hmm: the "folded" text seems to be a constant problem. I test these on a 16:9 screen ratio but not all people use that. Please post a screenshot with the problem and (important!) the resolution you are using, so I can post a fix.

 

[Buck Rogers]

If you have to ask, then it wasn't engaged. You definitely know when the turbopump has been engaged.

Yeah, I remember that sound! h: I'll try to think of that next time.

Bring it over here, so I can put it on the scoreboard. Preferably the pic itself, not a thumbnail. (That's just me).

:n00b: Sorry I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to posting; do you use an external client or do you link the pics to your own Orbiter gallery?

In addition, you can tell a bit about the method you used and the difficulties you encountered with that ship, if you want.

First attempt, relied heavily on HoverMFD, nothing terribly eventful, maybe a bit too easy. DV used 2701.9. Wasted quite a bit of DV watching the bird sink down on it's spindly landing gear though! :lol: (maybe there should be a scoreboard for no AP landings(whatever one would define that as?))

It's not mandatory, but I like to think that the purpose of these challenges is to help people learn. Playbacks, videos and/or detailed descriptions are always welcome.

Couldn't agree more! Share and learn! Would like to do a video if that's not to much hassle, or upload a playback? Only did one playback of my last manual attempt and still had the LUA ref. in the .scn file: ballsed up my scoreboard! :facepalm: Will remove if I upload one!

Quick walkthrough:
Lower PeA to ~ 5000 (don't use OrbitMFD!), timewarp>
LOI: manual was best, timewarp>
Half Orbit before base: Lower PeA to >~2000 over base (no Orulex!) ,timewarp>
Quarter Orbit: manual CC's using HoverMFD as guide, timewarp>
+~ 500km to target, repeat CC's,
Braking distance DG: ~50km, engage AP's as late as possible
Check and override
Watch touchdown, take screenshot

Not really a bug.
This challenge is set so that it needs to be done in one session. If you pick it up from a save you get the "absurd" result.

It's a quick session anyway, with timewarp it takes maybe 10-15 min, + the extra thinking time I need to assure myself that I'm not making a mistake and/or forgetting something of course!

The main reason is to show that the selection of the altitude at which to perform the LOI burn plays a major part in the Delta-V usage. So both the LOI and the PDL need to happen in one session. If you simply pick it up from a save and practise just the landing, it is easy to forget the role the LOI burn played.

OK, now I'm being stupid :huh: (maybe I can learn something) PDL: Post Descent Landing??? I'm pretty sure you don't mean one of these:http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/pdl

:hmm: the "folded" text seems to be a constant problem. I test these on a 16:9 screen ratio but not all people use that. Please post a screenshot with the problem and (important!) the resolution you are using, so I can post a fix.

No worries, I can live with that, I can see enough to get by. I have a pretty outdated system, res.:1280x1024

 

[dgatsoulis]

:n00b: Sorry I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to posting; do you use an external client or do you link the pics to your own Orbiter gallery?

The way you posted it on #37 is just fine. I use an external photosharing site and post the direct link to the pic between tags but that's just a matter of personal preference.
I have already updated the scoreboard with your 2701.9 m/s XR5 score.
[quote]Post Descent Landing??? [/quote]
Powered Descent and Landing
[quote]No worries, I can live with that, I can see enough to get by. I have a pretty outdated system, res.:1280x1024[/quote]
I'll update the lua code for the existing challenge to fix this problem, when I post the tailsitter version. (one tailsitter down, two to go).

 

[Buck Rogers]

I have already updated the scoreboard with your 2701.9 m/s XR5 score.

Hey great thanks a lot, here's the screen shot!

Powered Descent and Landing

Brain was dead, thanks for the explanation.

I'll update the lua code for the existing challenge to fix this problem, when I post the tailsitter version. (one tailsitter down, two to go).

Great news, looking forward to it!

 

[Buck Rogers]

And, to round things off, here's one for the XR2.
Didn't quite make first place (probably a good thing?)
DV used: 2699.3 (sorry Blixel!)
Hoping some ambitious bush pilots are eager to push the limits!
Screenshot + Playback:

 

[dgatsoulis]

Sorry for the delay, RL issues. I haven't done any more work on the tail-sitter version. Keeps getting postponed from weekend to weekend.

If blixel still has it, perhaps he can post the Deepstar lander version I had sent him for testing.

Scoreboard updated. (Nice score Buck! :thumbup.

 

[blixel]

If blixel still has it, perhaps he can post the Deepstar lander version I had sent him for testing.

I'm a digital pack rat. I never delete anything. Especially when it comes to Orbiter.

For anyone who might be interested, I attached the DeepStar Lander scenario file and lua script to this post. The zip file is set up with proper directory structure, so all you have to do is unzip to your Orbiter directory.