Project G42-200 StarLiner

Moach

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cool! then i guess we're set!


i still might do some changes, but the general concept is pretty much that....

i guess i'll see what works best when i get it coded... not much i can do right now (at work) - hopefully tonight i'll get a chance on some able time :rolleyes:
 

Keatah

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Absolutely remarkable! Just what a spaceplane should be. And it's a real-live WIP to boot.
This is just crying out for a full systems simulation, with such a gorgeous office and whatnot.. Enlist help if you need to. But git'r'done..
 

Moach

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alrightey then - i may have come to a better solution to our throttles issue


since a binary burners selector is proving much too cumbersome to be of any help - i figure we might as well replace it for something more, hmm.... "slidery"

so i thought of a thumb-slider thingy mounted on the top of the fadec handle - which we could then tie to a joystick axis or a pair of keys :rolleyes:


it'd work like this:

attachment.php





so then, if you notice - it's now possible to keep the fadec lever at max, then add in the burners gradually without changing RPM... after that - it still responds to the usual 80%-100% mappings, but you can also choose just how far you need the burners to go


seems like this solves the problem... if only i can isolate another input axis for it...
trouble is, Orbiter only allows joystick axes to be accessed via dummy thrusters - and i was planning on using the (last remaining) retros axis for activating the airbrakes....

i could rig my directinput module to forward axes straight up through an orbitersound-like API... i was planing on that anyways....

so i might use the retros for now, and when i get that sorted out , i'll set it up for the airbrakes too....


then i'd leave a pair of keys as a fallback for when your flying keyboards and/or not using the DI module :hmm:


i guess that'd work, any thoughts? :cheers:
 

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Ripley

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...then i'd leave a pair of keys as a fallback for when your flying keyboards and/or not using the DI module...
I have the impression that many Orbinauts don't have any HOTAS systems, or any joystick at all. Maybe it's something to keep in mind.
 

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I often jam with orbiter on my lappy. This means an external keypad for thruster control when out'n'about.. I wouldn't be bringing any fancy flightsticks with me.
 

Cras

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could always use the method Shuttle Does for airbrakes. Not to an axis, but just button pushes for 5% increments. Nice to have that ability to adjust the airbrakes incrementally, instead of just airbrakes being depolyed or retracted, like in XRs an DGIV
 

Moach

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i'll just get us set up with both...

then i'll be happy with my little X52 simpit and everyone less inclined to surrond themselves with hardware may still enjoy the same features by keyboard increment keys (as with the F1~F4 keys in FSX)



another option would be to use a "hold and pull" method... if you throttle back while holding a button, it'll keep the RPM steady and slide in the burners over the travelled range, making the position where you release it (anywhere between 100 and80%) become the "split point" - so then you push the stick back up to full, and hang in there for one hell of a ride :headbang:


now that i think of it, seems that's the easiest of all methods - quick, intuitive, and it already leaves you with the stick in the proper place when you pull in the burners - plus, very simple to code!

you can also map this button (i'm thinking spacebar, maybe) to a joystick button and use it to roll up the burners without unhanding the throttle - it's a win-win :thumbup:



everyone, thanks for the help! - i wouldn't have figured this out if it wasn't for your insights :cheers:
 
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Richy

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This is already an awesome bird. Now my favorite spacecraft, thanks to that amazing VC. That's immersion! :D

But for my humble opinion, the whole afterburner throttle is a bit too much. I wouldn't have problem, if it uses just the 0-80% slider range, for throttle, and the rest 20% for the burners.
I'm one with a joystick, but I believe to, we're a minority. Therefore, most people couldn't even enjoy fancy slider tricks, so why that much effort?

Btw: aren't the afterburners not only used in takeoff and transsonic ascend? And most of the time, I think, anyway only full ABs or none. This AB control could maybe even overstrain some users, or not get used properly.

Any, it is the most impressive craft in orbiter at the moment. I'm looking forward to any advanced system integration accomplish! :thumbup:
 

Moach

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thing is, i dn't like knowing that i COULD have done better but didn't...

plus, it's not such a big deal - the problem is much more conceptual than it is technical, really.... that's why i'd like to get it sorted out to the best of my abilities :hmm:


now that i know what i'm gonna do - it's like 10 mins of coding plus a little tests... i often find what works best to solve programming problems, is to think about them when you're NOT programming :rolleyes:

there is indeed such a thing as to be "standing to close to see it" in programming.... actually quite a lot so...

one a colleague told me he had a very helpful technique for this type of thing - it was a rubber duckling, you know, one of those classic cute little yellow bathtub buddies...

he kept it around while coding and consulted it when faced with a complex task...

you see, in logic - sometimes the very act of verbalizing a problem as you describe it to someone in serch for assistence can force your brain to view the matter from a point where the solution becomes apparent (and often seems obvious immediately afterwards)

most programmers i know have at least once happened to lead themselves into a solution while explaining the problem to a peer

but since i didn't succeed in acquiring any ducklings (those are remarkably hard to find), i usually just go bother the developent of KSP by diverting my brothers attention via Skype, or afflict my immeadiate area co-workers with impossibly technical gibberish (i'm th only GAMES programmer here) :p

or also, every now and then i use you guys! :lol: :j/k:


well, back to work now :cheers:
 

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I would tend to believe that a ship of this stature would have some sort of auto-throttle capability. With the option to control it 100% manual at any point in the ascent profile. And with the option to switch back and forth between auto/manual. The logic would need to be aware of many things such as altitude, temp, speed, AoA, air density, vehicle weight and configuration. Basically a full-blown FADEC with 100% manual capacity when desired.

When programming, I usually consult my old videogames from 1977 or so. Great diversions to clear the cobwebs.
 

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I think for a project as fantastic as the 42 you will find plenty of willing virtual rubber ducks!
I for one have very little programming knowledge or even knowledge of the engineering complexities of a jet turbine afterburner. But if your explanation of such things helps find a solution to the the problem, I am all ears :huh:
 

Cras

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I would tend to believe that a ship of this stature would have some sort of auto-throttle capability. With the option to control it 100% manual at any point in the ascent profile. And with the option to switch back and forth between auto/manual. The logic would need to be aware of many things such as altitude, temp, speed, AoA, air density, vehicle weight and configuration. Basically a full-blown FADEC with 100% manual capacity when desired.

When programming, I usually consult my old videogames from 1977 or so. Great diversions to clear the cobwebs.

Ships of this level, should they appear in the real world someday, I would say would certainly have full automatic capability for ascent to orbit, and descent from orbit.

If Moach would want to go that far, or would such a thing even be worth while, is a different matter.

I hazard the suggestion of at least some sort of assist on the de-orbit side of things, if not a full blown de-orbit autopilot. One that can at least hold the AoA steady, both in level flight and when the pilot inputs rolls.

But that is a different subject for a different time. Auto-throttle would be nice, as would a general array of atmospheric autopilots since one does spend a bit of time in the air prior to the trans-sonic stage.
 

Urwumpe

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I think it is a tiny bit inconsequent to engage the burners by this complex mechanism. Why not either:

  • Have a single separate switch to switch them on, maybe even have a separate throttle for them, so you have full manual control, but also the workload related to it.
  • Have a fully automated throttle and rely on the redundancy of the avionics to not kill you when all fails. After all, without computers your plane would likely spin out of control during reentry anyway. When the throttle is in the right % range and you simply press a toggle button, the burners are engaged and automatically controlled so your throttle selects the total thrust.

I like your design a lot, but sometimes I feel like you get lost in details that people might curse after a few sessions already, because they backfire when the workload really increases.

KISS

Or to be more poetic: Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher. - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

(English: Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to cut away.)
 

Moach

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autopilot is something i expect getting to in a semi-near future....


it's just a bunch of command targets and PID loops, really... after what i''ve been through with those damn cotrollers at my job recently, this shouldn't really be any major hurdle at all (compared to getting a ragdoll to stay on top of a tumbling stunt motorbike, and make it FUN) :shifty:


but then i figured - there's no point in making any RCS-capable autopilot... there are several MFD's which are already capable of that, so there's a wheel i'm not set on reinventing a any time soon :rolleyes:

so i'll stick mostly to coding atmospheric ACS autopilot features - those aren't anything Orbiter can offer from its very extensive set of built-in features, nor somethng you should have to rely on addon MFD's for... so that's my thing to make it happen, i guess :p



attitude hold would be a first priority for any autopilot.... kinda because, well... all the other functions are more or less based around holding a particular attitude, anyways...

so that's gotta do you some help during those reentries.... also, the fuel-transfer CoG shift device has gotta be automated too... just like on the concorde - it should adapt to keep along with the center of lift somehow so the resulting torque is minimized

seems like a job for another PID loop :thumbup:



edit -- almost got censored over a missing character in the word "shift" :uhh::leaving:



edit again --

the reason i gave the afterburner controls so much thought is exactly because i was aiming to achieve something very straightforward to operate but that at the same time, didn't leave you with a jumping throttle when you set it on and off...

a separate throttle was my first idea, waaay back.... it was then scrapped because that would mean an extra axis to manipulate - a far more inconvenient workload, specially considering the amount of axes available is direly limited :blink:

the solution then was to map a section of the FADEC to the burners, as it is in the currently released WIP.... but that's also not optimal, because you have to deal either with a lower-than-full RPM or a major dead-zone/throttle jump issue


the solution -- with throttle at full, hold the reheat trigger (spacebar for you, a little thumb button on the FADEC for the "pilot"), then pull the throttle back to where you want the split point to be, RPM will NOT decrease, since you're basically moving the point where it maps to full

then, release it, and roll back up for burners to engage... if you pull back any less than 80% - you'll set yourelf a burner limit below full - and that's a good thing for cases like ATC restrictions or critical fuel situations, etc...

the reverse process will disable the burners and remove the deadzone on the stick :yes:

this makes it very hard to accidentally fire the burners (a common problem in PC flying) - but it also allows you full control without EVER having an uncommanded jump on the throttle or anything inconvenient like that



alternativelly, with throttle at zero - hold the reheat trigger down and start to throttle up, this will automatically set the reheat limit to full... while moving the stick to zero resets it, and it'll be off upon next time


try to keep in mind - it sounds complex because i'm trying to explain it in fine detail (and kinda poorly, i'll admit)... and it's hard to make it sound as simple as it should feel... interface design is tricky that a ways :cheers:
 
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Urwumpe

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Autopilots are rarely more than a collection of PID loops working together. :lol:
 

jangofett287

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Wasn't the idea to have a computer system to control most of the switches and systems. As I recall there is even space on the central panel for the over-ride.
 

Moach

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Wasn't the idea to have a computer system to control most of the switches and systems. As I recall there is even space on the central panel for the over-ride.

pretty much so... notice how a lot of them have a middle stop marked "auto" :cheers:
 
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