Flight Question How are jet/rocket engines rated?

Raven

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Hi everyone. Happy new year!

I'm starting on my first .dll addon and have a question: Are jet or rocket engines rated at actual thrust as applied to a vessel or is at an ideal "bench number"? For example, specs read: "two turbojet engines... rated at 310 kN dry thrust each..." Does this equal 620 kN total thrust of the vessel, or is there some power loss?
 

Hlynkacg

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There are several ways but the most important for our purposes are "Thrust" and "Impulse"

Thrust is the amount of force that the engine produce while running and is measured in Newtons (the amount of energy required to accelerate 1 kg to 1meter a second)

Impulse is the amount of fuel that the engine consumes to produce a given amount of force and is usually measured in "impulse seconds" or ISP. An engine with an ISP of 300 will produce 300 newtons for one second per kilogram of fuel consumed.

An engine rated at 310kn dry thrust will produce 310kn at 100% throttle setting, so yes a vessel with two such engines will have 620kn of total thrust.

For a jet engine the equation gets more complicated as Thrust is effected by atmospheric pressure, and ISP is a function of atmospheric pressure, temprature, and composition.

Another thing that makes this more complicated is that many jet engines can actually be throttled past 100% because 100% is usually defined as the maximum power setting that engine can run at continuously.
 
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Urwumpe

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Hi everyone. Happy new year!

I'm starting on my first .dll addon and have a question: Are jet or rocket engines rated at actual thrust as applied to a vessel or is at an ideal "bench number"? For example, specs read: "two turbojet engines... rated at 310 kN dry thrust each..." Does this equal 620 kN total thrust of the vessel, or is there some power loss?

You usually also apply the altitude reference for the thrust to it, since all rocket engines are suffering losses from ambient air pressure. Often you have two numbers given, the sea level thrust (maximum ambient pressure) and the vacuum thrust. With the thrust, that drop because of the ambient air pressure, you also loose specific impulse, the quality that measures how effective the rocket engine works. specific impulse is measured by impulse (Thrust over time) generated per propellant mass used. A lower thrust at the same fuel consumption results in lower specific impulse.

Specific impulse varies with the engines, and is not constant for a fuel combination, that quality of the propellant is described with the characteristic velocity of this fuel, and only depends on the fuels you use, their temperatures in the tanks and the mixture ratio.

The thrust does not vary much by the installation into the rocket, since rockets have no inlet for air, like jet engines. You can have a boat tail effect by having multiple engines form some sort of an aerospike, but the effect is often exaggerated in science-fiction, it can give you a few percent more thrust, but that is often eaten by the worse aerodynamics and less effective engines placement.

The thrust that you get by installing rocket engines on your rocket differently does of course change depending on how you place them and how you point them - but that is not different to aircraft then. usually you place the engines close together to have a smaller cross section, but far enough apart to permit control of the rocket by tilting the engines (thrust vector control).

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------

Impulse is the amount of fuel that the engine consumes to produce a given amount of force and is usually measured in "impulse seconds" or ISP. An engine with an ISP of 300 will produce 300 newtons for one second per kilogram of fuel consumed.

Wrong. ISP means "specific impulse" or [math]I_{sp}[/math] in mathematical notation. It is measured in seconds sometimes (inaccurately, but it works at least), but generally, it is impulse (Force * Time) per propellant mass.

if you have 300 seconds as poor US engineer, you would have 300 kg(f) thrust in your example - about 3000N. In SI units, 300 [math]\frac{N \cdot s}{kg}[/math] or short 300 m/s give you the 300 N thrust for one second per kg of propellant burned - or an engine burning one kg fuel every second makes 300 N thrust.

In Britain, you use furlongs per fortnight for describing the specific impulse, which generates a idle thrust already because of the zeros pouring out of the engine documentation.
 

Loru

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...In Britain, you use furlongs per fortnight for describing the specific impulse, which generates a idle thrust already because of the zeros pouring out of the engine documentation.

:rofl:

Actually I can't understand why engineers in UK/US are using something different than SI. It makes math a lot easier.
 

RisingFury

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Among bits and Bytes...
Thrust is the amount of force that the engine produce while running and is measured in Newtons (the amount of energy required to accelerate 1 kg to 1meter a second)

No... Newtons don't measure energy.

If you wanna break down the unit, a Newton is the force needed to accelerate a 1 kg object by 1 meter per second, every second.
 

Urwumpe

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No... Newtons don't measure energy.

If you wanna break down the unit, a Newton is the force needed to accelerate a 1 kg object by 1 meter per second, every second.

Yes. The energy to accelerate one kg to 1 m/s is 0.5 Joule.
 

n72.75

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Rating rocket engines, generally one through five stars.
 

Raven

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Wow, quick, numerous, and informative replies. Thank you all.
 

Hlynkacg

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Wrong. ISP means "specific impulse" or [math]I_{sp}[/math] in mathematical notation. It is measured in seconds sometimes (inaccurately, but it works at least), but generally, it is impulse (Force * Time) per propellant mass.

No... Newtons don't measure energy.

If you wanna break down the unit, a Newton is the force needed to accelerate a 1 kg object by 1 meter per second, every second.

I guess this is what I get for posting while hung-over and before I've had my morning coffee. :facepalm:
 

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I really need to wait until Physics class. (I'm still in Chem)

So how much ISP would a low thrust but highly efficient ion engine be?
 

Urwumpe

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So how much ISP would a low thrust but highly efficient ion engine be?

250 [math]\frac{kNs}{kg}[/math] are possible for some magnetoelectric thrusters.
 

T.Neo

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Rating rocket engines, generally one through five stars.

I personally rate the NK-33 at 3.5 stars, the SSME at 3 stars, and the J-2X at 1 star. :p
 

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mikusingularity
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How can a low thrust spacecraft have high ISP? (if ISP is thrust produced in one second per kg of fuel)

I'm trying to wrap my head around this stuff.
 
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Urwumpe

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How can a low thrust spacecraft have high ISP? (if ISP is thrust produced in one second per kg of fuel)

I'm trying to wrap my head around this stuff.

If they could burn one kg one one second, they would produce such a high thrust like their specific impulse predicts. Actually they "burn" just a few dozen milligrams per second.

Thrust is specific impulse multiplied with mass flow. Smaller mass flow = smaller thrust.

The only limit for electrostatic thrusters (like many satellites use) is the voltage that you can have in the accelerating grid without arcs forming.
 

Urwumpe

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Can someone make some sort of a flowchart showing how the different terms/units go together?

Ahem...

[math]F = \dot{m} \cdot I_{sp}[/math]
Units as suitable. Just a simple single multiplication. I don't know what kind of flow chart you expect there.
 

C3PO

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[math]F = \dot{m} \cdot I_{sp}[/math]
Units are:

[math]F[/math]: Force in Newton
[math]\dot{m}[/math]: Fuel flow in kg/s
[math]I_{sp}[/math]: Specific impulse in m/s
 

Raven

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So the next question is: if I program this with 620 kN and use function "ispscale = (modelidx ? x x );", that would set base thrust at sea level and thrust would increase with altitude?
 
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