New Release Interplanetary Modular Spacecraft RC9

[Tacolev]

Now that I look at the schematic, though, it seems that the engine needs power for its cooling system. That could give trouble. You can of course add a PowerInput parameter to the engine, but I think the engine would consume it even if it is not thrusting.

Yes sorry if there was any confusion. In the configs as they are now the generator does all the producing and the engine is a thermal type with a PowerInput line. And yes this definitely seems like a textbook case for composite modules.

-Drive and Generator are a composite module, that is two modules that are connected via child attachment.
-Drive will consume power set in PowerInput while thrusting. Consumption is unrelated to thrust level. (note: do not make electric engine, electric engines are hard-coded to demand their entire thrust power in electricity)
-Generator can produce power if engine is thrusting (but will not kick in automatically, and power output will not be related to thrust level).
-as a little perk, secondary engine parameters such as cooling capacity will not work if engine doesn't have power.

Is that about what you want?

This is pretty much it, with the one big caveat about the following question:

Also, the whole setup would seem to suggest that power can only be supplied while the engine is working. That could give trouble. You can of course add a PowerInput parameter to the engine, but I think the engine would consume it even if it is not thrusting.

The paper is not terribly explicit about this, but it actually appears to be the case that the engine can't be online and not thrusting. The design is basically a torus-type fusion reactor with a magnetic nozzle and I don't get the impression anywhere in the paper that it's possible to have the reactor online and circulating plamas without engaging the diverter, nor is there adequate radiator surface for dealing with the 4GW of thrust power if it's not going out the back.

The design does include a "small" (several megawatt) fission reactor for startup and as an auxilliary power source. I've just put the dead mass of the reactor in the generator module for now.

 

[jedidia]

Ok, will do a few modifications for RC3 then. Shouldn't be too tough. I'm kind of having a break this week, too much baby business around my head so I'm distracting myself with a round of MoO3 (which is going rather awfully so far...), but I'll be back in the code next week.

Also, the schematic and the design you describe sounds eerily familiar... you're not per chance doing the Discovery II, are you? because that would be totally awesome!

 

[Tacolev]

At the risk of making this still more complicated I thought I'd add that I'm referencing the design in this paper. And this paper depicts a design with a similar issue.

And edited to add that yes, as a new father your priorities are firmly anywhere but in front of a text editor. One baby is enough!

 

[jedidia]

Heh, you Ninja'd my edit. So are you planning on doing the whole thing or just the drive?

 

[Tacolev]

Well I ninja'd my own in the same time-scale and then edited it again so that my edited to add would actually have been edited to add. The laws of temporality are fluid with me tonight it seems. Maybe we should call Martin Heidegger :shifty:

Anyway, this project started out as finding a plausible set of specifications to go along with the hyper engine mesh. TMac's desire to run a forum mission to the Jovian system seemed an ideal application and since the mesh very much appears as having a magnetic nozzle the Discovery-II came to mind pretty quickly.

Of course with the Discovery-II just doing the drive isn't more than a stone's throw from doing the whole thing. The hab is basically an afterthought. But since my 3D-foo is not very good and I'm not planning on making any new meshes anytime soon, the Discovery-III is just going to be a vehicle with some rounder numbers and maybe a "medium-temperature" rankine-cycle generator like in the HOPE paper that will cut that enormous required surface area for low-temperature radiators down to something that won't be a framerate killer...

 

[jedidia]

Well I ninja'd my own in the same time-scale and then edited it again so that my edited to add would actually have been edited to add. The laws of temporality are fluid with me tonight it seems. Maybe we should call Martin Heidegger

Timey whimey wobbly stuff, eh?

But since my 3D-foo is not very good and I'm not planning on making any new meshes anytime soon

Pitty. Hispa actually did the whole thing once, but went suddenly quiet. Maybe he would be willing to part from the meshes, which would of course have to be hacked up to make sense in IMS, but still... If noone is doing her, I'll have to do it myself sooner or later.

that will cut that enormous required surface area for low-temperature radiators down to something that won't be a framerate killer...

If you take large enough radiators, they shouldn't affect the framerate too much, really.

 

[Grover]

just a quick question about radiator cooling (or heating ):

NOTE: i dont accuse this of being a bug! i just want to understand the maths at work here

i had my radiator connected to the command module and battery module of a small space station, nothing else. it was protected from the sun by the truss that it was attached to, and it was radiating perpendicular to the sunlight to boot.

after connecting, it began to increase in temperature, until it reached the temperature where it could radiate enough power to balance the incoming power from the two modules (thermal equilibrium), but it continued to heat up, and to the point where the radiator was giving out more power than was going in, but still heating up

where could this energy be coming from? or is there a chance that my configuration was somehow allowing external entities add energy to the radiator/coolant (like truss segments not blocking sunlight)

also, a quick suggestion/feature request!

is there any chance of an attitude control update? i have a couple of ideas (obviously not simple now )

1) dynamic RCS: on every update to the construction, the onboard RCS updates the max thrusts of each thruster to balance each axes rotation, and therefore cause no translation when firing.

for example, it works one axis at a time, reading the maximum possible thrust of each thruster, and its respective offset from the CoG (in terms of torque generation of course)

then, it calculates a balanced solution, reducing the thrusts of certain engines (whilst "remembering" the maximum possible thrust in case of later change)

after this, it completes the operation for the remaining two axes, taking any previously modified thrusters as constants.

of course it is certainly not the easiest thing to make dynamic, and any orbinaut could make a scenario where the calculations would fail (such as one thruster requiring negative thrust because of what another axis calculation made constant. perhaps allowing later calculations to add a de-multiplier to the previous "constants" to allow other RCS modules to generate enough thrust to cancel, but i can think of a full mathematical solution later if you need).


2) alternately, a module that can be added that simulates a CMG, consuming power to directly create torque in either axis, that standard orbiter autopilots can control (Thornton's super detailed ISS did something similar, but not dynamically)

of course, torque generation would be reduced with distance from the CoG, perhaps dividing torque generation by offset for each axis?)

it would certainly be nice to get good attitude control into my space stations, which are never symmetrical (along the X-Z plane at least), meaning that my attitude adjustments slowly ruin my orbit, and annoy any vessel trying to station-keep during the docking phase.

thanks man!

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

also, a quick one: how much of each life support resource does each UMMU consume per day?

i need to plan how much storage i require

 

[jedidia]

i had my radiator connected to the command module and battery module of a small space station, nothing else. it was protected from the sun by the truss that it was attached to, and it was radiating perpendicular to the sunlight to boot.

I wouldn't trust too much on shadowing by the vessel, but if the surface wasn't facing the sun this behavior is strange. Scenario might help.

is there any chance of an attitude control update? i have a couple of ideas

There is a chance, but not anytime soon. It'll be apreaciably far behind on the priorities list...

Gyros are planned and will probably be implemented a lot sooner.

also, a quick one: how much of each life support resource does each UMMU consume per day?

Right, I should get that documentation finished...
Consumption is 0.84 kg oxygen, 3.52 kg of water and 0.62 kg of food. Reason that water is so high and food so low is that these are numbers that are given by Nasa for freeze-dried food. I.e. a seizable amount of the water goes into food preparation, and a bit is added for hygiene.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

I wouldn't trust too much on shadowing by the vessel, but if the surface wasn't facing the sun this behavior is strange. Scenario might help.



There is a chance, but not anytime soon. It'll be apreaciably far behind on the priorities list...

Gyros are planned and will probably be implemented a lot sooner.



Right, I should get that documentation finished...
Consumption is 0.84 kg oxygen, 3.52 kg of water and 0.62 kg of food. Reason that water is so high and food so low is that these are numbers that are given by Nasa for freeze-dried food. I.e. a seizable amount of the water goes into food preparation, and a bit is added for hygiene.

How does the water... ah, get into the food? Without floating off into circuit panels or whatnot, I guess?

By the way, IMS looks pretty terrific, but I was wondering if it would be plausible to adapt this project to create a station building addon, obviously possible with IMS, but for just building space stations, It would be better to be able to load a VC mesh, add campos ids through the config file (able to explore interior), and to detach individual modules after attachment. What would you think of that?

 

[Grover]

How does the water... ah, get into the food? Without floating off into circuit panels or whatnot, I guess?

By the way, IMS looks pretty terrific, but I was wondering if it would be plausible to adapt this project to create a station building addon, obviously possible with IMS, but for just building space stations, It would be better to be able to load a VC mesh, add campos ids through the config file (able to explore interior), and to detach individual modules after attachment. What would you think of that?

the water si added to the food when its prepared, then frozen, so it doesn't float about, since its attached to the food in a solid state.

when the 'naut eats the food, (s)he's just careful to clean up after him/herself

and i use IMS for space stations. im currently deciding on the best method for launching and construction. the XR5 is nice, but a little too easy to get all the modules up there, theres no "racing the temperature of your command module", since it's quite possible to get all your thermal controls up there in one launch, and if you use UCD, you can get a fully self-sustaining (non-crewed at least) space station running, just waiting for a life support module and some storage before its capable of housing its hosts

as for a HUGE VC, i wouldn't bet on that. given only two people working on this, and that its only their SPARE time, you'd be looking at a year or two's work, plus any time spent on the dependencies, and getting reliable attitude control for our vessels, and a wider variety of modules will certainly come first

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

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theres the scenario for the radiator problem.

the radiator is facing away from the sun (perpendicular at least), and in any case, is shielded by the truss and the huge frickin XR5

it is recieving 13kw of heat, and emitting 14kw of heat, but it it somehow still heating up

any ideas?

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

Consumption is 0.84 kg oxygen, 3.52 kg of water and 0.62 kg of food.

per day? your food seems a little conservative, i personally eat at least 1.2kg (not that i weigh my food...)

 

[jedidia]

theres the scenario for the radiator problem.

Good, I'll take a look at it tomorrow, today's late.

per day? your food seems a little conservative, i personally eat at least 1.2kg (not that i weigh my food...)

Yes, per day, sorry. It's not my food, it's Nasa's food, and as I said, it's freeze dried. That means there's no water in it at all, and that is a significant fraction of the food you eat. Plus you reportedly have less apetite in free fall... :shifty:

By the way, IMS looks pretty terrific, but I was wondering if it would be plausible to adapt this project to create a station building addon, obviously possible with IMS, but for just building space stations, It would be better to be able to load a VC mesh, add campos ids through the config file (able to explore interior), and to detach individual modules after attachment. What would you think of that?

Detaching modules after attachment is a problem and there's no elegant solution to it with the current core architecture, but a somewhat clumsy workaround can be made (not by me, though). The other stuff would be fairly easy I think.

On another note, my last round of MoO3 ended with me getting my butt handed by the Silicoids. Started a new round and got an incredible starting position. Single inhabitant of a whole arm of a two arm galaxy, with only one starlane to the core. Easy to defend and build a huge frickin' empire behind closed doors. Let's hope I don't mess this up...

 

[PeterRoss]

On another note, my last round of MoO3 ended with me getting my butt handed by the Silicoids. Started a new round and got an incredible starting position. Single inhabitant of a whole arm of a two arm galaxy, with only one starlane to the core. Easy to defend and build a huge frickin' empire behind closed doors. Let's hope I don't mess this up...

Personally I prefer MoO2, don't like the idea of wormholes which MoO3 is based on, if I recall correctly. Bad thing about MoO2 is that it's ancient and I'm not sure it will run on any modern OS. And the map is too small. Ah well, I'm playing M&B:Warband anyway.

Wait, it's IMS thread, right... :uhh:

 

[jedidia]

I'm not sure it will run on any modern OS

DosBox is your friend

Ah well, I'm playing M&B:Warband anyway.

I play that when I'm in a fantasy mood...

---------- Post added at 07:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------



Anyways, back to IMS.

@Grover: I see you are using a custom module, so of course I can't load the scenario. Please post the config. It might be possible that the problem is connected to that.

Also note that while there is rudimentary self-shadowing, other vessels won't cast a shadow. I don't have a raytracer in there, and a CPU based raytracer without direct access to the renderer would be a framerate eater beyond compare, so there won't be one ever, unless one of the graphics clients provides me with access to one.

---------- Post added at 09:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 AM ----------

I replaced the module with the standard battery module to launch the scenario, and I can't find anything wrong with it. The radiator holds a stable temperature of below 260 K, it's got a dump of 13-odd kW from command module and battery module, and disipates somewhere around 14 kW. That's 1 kW additional from soar influx. On a surface area of 32 m^2 in LEO that means about an 89 degree angle to the sun. Seems about right when looking at the scenario.

 

[Grover]

Sorry, forgot about my battery module.

So the readout for input is only the input from the MCS, and there is actually more energy going in?
I'll bear that in mind later
Thanks

 

[jedidia]

So the readout for input is only the input from the MCS, and there is actually more energy going in?
I'll bear that in mind later

Well yes, that's what the sun does... it adds additional heat to your radiators, increasing their temperature until they can dissipate the additional heat and maintain a constant temperature.

The "dump" property is only the dump from your MCS... but this is not only the waste heat from electrical systems, this is also the heat those modules get from exposure to the sun, but yes, the sun is not considered to be "dumping" heat into your radiators. In real life terms, "dump" would be calculated by measuring coolant temperature before and after the heat exchanger, and radiator temperature by heat sensors in the radiators themselves.

 

[PeterRoss]

Here's OBS with its docking node finished. Meshes will be reworked and texturized later, this is just an idea of what it should look like:

I have a glitch though. When I'm trying to operate gates some wrong meshes moving together with the right ones. I don't know if it's possible to find a cause on this stage of construction though. I wasn't using gates for a while and can't say from what moment they started to act weird. Here is OBS modules' pack and scenario. Just try to open gates:

http://ge.tt/7pUw25O/v/0?c

 

[jedidia]

I never realised it was that big...

I'll have a look. Backtracking where exactly the error occured will probably be impossible, but at least it'll tell me if there's something wrong with the composite modules code.

 

[Grover]

heres my progress so far on my own modules:
a small selection of modules made (textures yet to be sorted)

*there are more variations, but similar to what you can see, such as a large 6 way node and a small 4 way node.
you can see the attachment ports (for radiators and panels etc) are the same as the SSB ports.
also, an APAs docking adapter is in the foreground, its not pretty, but its functional (ive given some thought to the movement of the doors even )

after a few hours modelling i have all but one habitable module (i want something like the ISS's Z1 module, which is habitable, and allows you to start a truss system quite nicely, two docking adpaters and my non-habitable sections left to do

im taking some inspiration from real ISS modules, whilst also making it a little orbiter-friendly, and adding my own touch to it.

i can't get poly counts till i export them, and im saving that till i have them all put together ready, but they should be a little higher than the SSB modules (50% more tops, but the SSB modules are rather low-poly)

ill include my own solar panels and radiators and such, to match my own styling

also: ive matched the size and shape of my own "attachment" construction ports to those of the SSB modules, so the two will be geometrically compatible at least

as you may have noticed, these modules will be for space stations, not specifically an interplanetary spacecraft, and i will design the specifications of the final modules as such (like having rapidly-discharging batteries, since they will be used for almost 45 minutes every 45 minutes, and will need to power everything)

let me know what you think guys!

 

[PeterRoss]

I never realised it was that big...

Yeah, the baby is BIG :yes:

heres my progress so far on my own modules:
a small selection of modules made (textures yet to be sorted)
...
let me know what you think guys!

I think your modules are great! :thumbup: And thank you for making them compatible with SBB too. :tiphat:

 

[Grover]

ive onyl matched the attachment port sizes (like those on greg's truss modules), but the actual docking ports (his version of CBM if you will) doesnt match mine at all, my CBM design is almost exactly between his smal and large rings, but still, its nothing that the extra added docking adapter can't fix (ive seen it in your package somewhere)

ill get working on the rest of the models after work, im thinking of possibly using a scale function for my solar panels, to make them more compact in storage, simulating the real ISS SAW deployments

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

ok, im just thinking about a realistic way to get my modules launched

im working on teh trusses now, and i think that i'm going to go for the huge whopping solar panels like you find on our own ISS. in this case, most space stations won't get any power installed till the construction reaches a phase where there is enough truss in place to get to huge moving wings away from the main structure, making it difficult to move crew in there early

im thinking about some supplementary panels to be bolted onto the top of a module to provide enough power to host a few crew members (power for critical modules and life support), or simply to run enough systems to keep the station powered and maintaining its own temperature (we dont want our first crew arriving to find that the electrical systems have frozen up and nothing will start up)