Is returning to the Moon worthwhile?

[ddom2006]

It's a debate that perhaps unexpectedly has found some fire in the last few months with Obama saying we've been there, done that, no point doing it again, etc.

Is a return to the Moon worthwhile?

Personally... I think we have to return to the Moon, we have to establish some long term base up there. We've got a long-term base in LEO, but Deep Space is a much harsher environment and a base on the Moon would allow us the kind of research on the effect of deep space on humans for long periods that we need for a trip to Mars in the future.

Opinions?

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Well if it's opinions you want, I'm full of those.

I love the idea of manned space exploration. It's one of those "because it's there" things, which is just part of being human. Sometimes it's not enough to see something through a camera; you have to go there and experience it first hand.

Realistically though, I'd have to say that it's not really the best way to go. Humans really aren't meant to be in space; we have to bring our own air, we can't stay out there for decades, there's radiation, etc. It's much better to send probes and robotic landers. Also, why would we go there? So we'd know how to get to the next furthest spot? Unless there's some valuable resource out there that can really benefit all of humanity, it seems kind of self-serving.

On the other hand, when your Mars rover gets a wheel stuck in the dirt, it sure would be nice to be able to walk over, tap it a bit, and get it moving again.

 

[Zachstar]

We have a massive oil spill in the gulf. Teachers getting laid off in droves. A war in Afghanistan that is heating up. It matters not what we think the political reality is the REAL money needed for a return to the moon simply is not going to happen any time soon.

Ares was a stunt. A way to pretend that shutting it down would be far too politically damaging but that was before the recession and they hardly expected the birth of the "realism" movement on various forums that decided to stop signing the praise of Ares and its bullcrap about "Safe Simple Soon"

In the 60s you could tell the poor farmer you were going to the moon because his kids were playing with rocket ship toys and it was the "Best" thing to do in their eyes. Money flowed like hotcakes back then a completely different situation from now.

So overall in the short term I am against a return to the moon. When we return to the moon I want it to be with the world watching. Not glancing at the TV while they grab a TV dinner while preparing to go to their 2nd job. That at best is 20 years from now. An insanely long time to wait I know but when you have 7 billion people on earth other priorities just exist.

 

[Artlav]

We have a massive oil spill in the gulf. Teachers getting laid off in droves. A war in Afghanistan that is heating up.

And who said the solutions to these problem are down here?

The good thing about abstract knowledge is that you never know what you get and when it will be useful. If there is a chance of a unique research Moon base can offer, why not take it?

Then, people need a goal, and a better one than sleep&eat&work&copulate.
A clear and worthwhile goal can be much more stimulating than pleasure or money or opinion of neighbours.

 

[Xyon]

I like my goals of sleep&eat&work&copulate, though I do find there's a lot of room left in the day afterwards.

I like to fill it with scratching.

Anyway, on the actual topic - returning to the moon? Worthwhile? Of course it is! If it was worthwhile going in the first place then it's surely worthwhile going now.

 

[garyw]

there are problems here that need to be addressed and what better way of addressing them than by getting the great space agencies of the world TOGETHER to work on the goal of getting to the moon and exploiting the Helium-3 resources to eliminate this worlds reliance on fossil fuel?

Worthy enough goal to help fix problems down here?

 

[Urwumpe]

It's a debate that perhaps unexpectedly has found some fire in the last few months with Obama saying we've been there, done that, no point doing it again, etc.
...

Opinions?

Yes - don't watch so much FoxNews, they can't quote a president right... Was an advantage for Bush, because FoxNews corrected his errors, but for Obama, it introduces only new errors.

Obama actually said that the technology is not able to do such missions at such a tight budget. That was actually also the finding of the Augustine commission. Obama never said "Been there, done that" - that quote was from a republican congressman in 1970.

The problem is simple: You can't get a 5% NASA budget again in the next decade. The political will to go to the moon, no matter the problems, is not there. So, if you want to let NASA get to the moon anyway, despite politicians thinking paving roads in Afghanistan is more important, you need to make NASA independent of political will in the congress - a moon mission has to fit into the normal NASA budget, so the moon mission has to become cheaper.

 

[Zachstar]

The only way a moon mission can become cheaper in the near term is if.

A) Massive cuts in red tape on the safety front. Politically Impossible

Or

B) Fantasy Technology. No I mean it fantasy technology as what we have today or anything in the near term wont do it. The Apollo guidance computer was huge you can replace it with a thousand dollar hardened 486 for a tiny tiny fraction of mass. Congrats you have solved 0.000001 percent of the issues with Ares. What about launcher? WHOOPs got to protect the jobs so political will forces it to cost a fortune. Capsule? Pay a brazillion so that people from 10-20 states can work on it. Technology? Don't make me laugh anything near term is a joke. 90 percent of solar breakthroughs seem to have a bad habbit of vanishing for instance or are geared squarely towards earth use. On top of that any tech created would have to be absurdly overpriced to keep constituents working.

Sorry that was a bit of a rant. Especially as I am Union. However, US politics makes it impossible to go back to the moon in a reasonable fashion in the short term. That was learned the hard way when slides started showing more states working on Ares and less about Ares issues. The whole darn thing was a way to get jobs and gain votes. NASA has become a way to purchase the state of Florida and for now that is about it.

So yes in the near term I would rather the gulf be cleaned and the teachers get an emergency package and maybe even a boost in technology research dealing with alt energy (Hey I can dream right?)

 

[Sky Captain]

IMHO going to NEO's might be cheaper than returning to the moon. Also detailed studies of NEO's would give valuable scientific data about the origin of our solar system and those missions would be a good proving ground for long duration mission hardware and in space propulsion that will be essential for any serious deep space activities.

 

[Zachstar]

People keep throwing the NEO idea around but while its cheaper it not needing much of a lander if one at all. It still requires the development of a heavy lift launcher. Something that has a BAD habbit of drawing in politics.

The basic idea of SSMEs strapped to the ET with SRBs on the side has been kicking around since STS-1 so why has it not happened? Politics. Where is my states cut? Why does that state get 1000 jobs and we dont? It goes on and on and on

 

[Moach]

i recenty watched random some sci-fi movie which brought an unuousual yet strangely compelling idea on how to make enough money for an interplanetary trip...


you see, ppl wanna be entertained, your regular Joe watches a moon mission with the same interest as he watches some inane reality show...

so the idea presented in that movie, is to combine the two - the whole mission was broadcasted as a reality show, in all it's sensationalist glory, with crew "confessionary" sessions and all :rofl:

i'll wait untill you laugh it out before continuing...

done?

ok, but what got me thinking was... billions of bucks go into general frivolity every year - nothing good ever arises from it, except maybe your random "who loses more weight" or "lets build the poor family a new home" scenarios...

there's so much dirty hollywood money going into making such things... why not tap into that for something extraordinary? - something that can REALLY benefit society, whislt entertaining it...

in the setting painted by that movie, this reality show was the "biggest thing ever", with billions of viewers.....


and i started thinking - ppl will watch whatever it's presented to them as interesting... it's hard to get non-intelectually-inclined folks excited about space exploration if they only hear about it in the news...

but show them as it unfolds in real-time, and you got yourself an audience, specially if you do the funny try-out sessions at season start



so, who wants to be an astronaut?


- only on Fox!
:rofl:

 

[Urwumpe]

People keep throwing the NEO idea around but while its cheaper it not needing much of a lander if one at all. It still requires the development of a heavy lift launcher.

No, it does not. Please let me just imply the Kraft-expression and tell you that this is not 1960 anymore.

When Apollo was designed, Heavy Lift and even its extreme, Direct Ascent, was the only useful option because docking was still science fiction back then. It was a long road to Lunar Orbit Rendezvous.

Today we do dozens of dockings in Low Earth Orbit every year. The technological risk is no longer there, even autonomous docking is already low risk technology, the current science-fiction for spaceflight is fully automatic docking.

 

[Moach]

it annoys me to think that if we were to find that by some miracle the moon turned out made of gold and candy, we'd be there in a heartbeat....


ah, humans... when will they cease?

 

[Izack]

ah, humans... when will they cease?

In 2012 when they think a rogue planet will come out of nowhere and destroy them all? :lol:

 

[supersonic]

I think that Moon exploration is worth while. I think we need to learn to live in harsh environments close to home. What beter place to do that then the moon. If you mess up on the Moon you may have a chance to get the heck out of there. On Mars or anywhere else, it's over.

 

[Urwumpe]

In 2012 when they think a rogue planet will come out of nowhere and destroy them all? :lol:

There will be three lawyers left to sue the Annunaki for letting their planet run free.

 

[Mogeley]

It's a debate that perhaps unexpectedly has found some fire in the last few months with Obama saying we've been there, done that, no point doing it again, etc.

Is a return to the Moon worthwhile?

Personally... I think we have to return to the Moon, we have to establish some long term base up there. We've got a long-term base in LEO, but Deep Space is a much harsher environment and a base on the Moon would allow us the kind of research on the effect of deep space on humans for long periods that we need for a trip to Mars in the future.

Opinions?

I have to agree. The moon is our nearest neighbor. I think returning to the moon permanently would be very good for the following reasons:

1) Learn how to permanently live in space
2) Try to be self-sufficient in space
3) It's the closest stable rock to land on.
4) If something goes wrong it's a 3 day trip rather than the 3 year trip to Mars.
5) The moon is still in orbit of the earth. So fuel for escape velocity from the earth is not needed. IE it's cheaper than going anywhere else.
6) The moon is a good place to test and learn so many things.
7) While it's expensive now the long term benefits outweigh the costs
8) Much of the tech we take for granted now comes from pushing the envelope in the space program.

 

[ddom2006]

Yes - don't watch so much FoxNews, they can't quote a president right... Was an advantage for Bush, because FoxNews corrected his errors, but for Obama, it introduces only new errors.

Being a Brit, and a Left-Centre thinking one at that, I avoid both Sky News and Fox News like the plague. I actually took the quote loosely from Obama's speech which is available on the white house iPhone application.

 

[Urwumpe]

Being a Brit, and a Left-Centre thinking one at that, I avoid both Sky News and Fox News like the plague. I actually took the quote loosely from Obama's speech which is available on the white house iPhone application.

Well, still a pretty "loose" quote. Do you mean the NASA future speech at KSC?

 

[ddom2006]

Well, still a pretty "loose" quote. Do you mean the NASA future speech at KSC?

Indeed. His exact quote (I found the transcript on the NASA website) was - "Now, I understand that some believe that we should attempt a return to the surface of the Moon first, as previously planned. But I just have to say pretty bluntly here: We’ve been there before. Buzz has been there. There’s a lot more of space to explore, and a lot more to learn when we do. So I believe it’s more important to ramp up our capabilities to reach -- and operate at -- a series of increasingly demanding targets, while advancing our technological capabilities with each step forward. And that’s what this strategy does. And that’s how we will ensure that our leadership in space is even stronger in this new century than it was in the last."