ISS to Mars?

Suzy

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I was reading this old thread and wondering if it would be hypothetically possible to send the ISS - or part of it - to Mars!

I am doing a story where an "interesting" (i.e. alien) artifact is discovered orbiting Mars, and Russia decides to get there first by whatever means possible.

  • The Russian segment - or most of it - would be undocked from the rest of the ISS. (Perhaps Zarya would be left docked to the U.S. segment so Progress ships could still be sent up to reboost the ISS orbit as normal.)
  • A new module (or perhaps an spare one lying around somewhere?) is fitted with a "Topaz" nuclear reactor and launched up, and docked with the Russian segment. It will provide power and propulsion. (Objections by the public will just be ignored :))
  • Two (or even just one) cosmonauts will go on the mission. It is almost a suicide mission as there won't be much in the way of radiation shielding, but they accept that they might probably die during the mission.
  • The mission has a similar profile to those currently doing the Mars-500 mission (over a year). Edit: it does not involve a Mars landing, only orbiting around and coming back.
  • I don't know how much cargo (or launches) would be needed to maintain two people for a year?
  • Would such a mission be cheaper than building a specialized spaceship (which I envision as looking similar to the Russian segment anyway)?
So that's my crazy scenario - is it even remotely plausible? :)
 
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Turbinator

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Hypothetically, yes. We have the technological capacity to even do this practically. The only thing that would stop us from doing it is money.

We would have to install stronger Whipple shields. As well; do further anti-radiation, and thermal blanketing. And install a new power system, as the current solar panels only operate at their peak in LEO. An RTG or three would do really good, they where used in human-proximity spaceflight before. That's about it.
 

SiberianTiger

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1. Not in this world, not in this Russia.
2. Thermal keeping system of RSOS is optimized to work in LEO, with big warm Earth alongside.
3. Won't store enough consumables to get to Mars and back.
4. Topaz's output is puny 5 kW of power, while real projects anticipate a Megawatt-class reactor would be required for a manned Mars trip.
5. What's the point of doing a manned trip without landing?
 

Wishbone

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This has been aired before, post-DRA 5.0 there were some projects (Mars for Less AFAIR) where a Zvezda service module (not the current one, but a freshly fabbed article) was considered for the role of transit habitat. /me ranks this among the projects that are unlikely to succeed anyway. Zvezda is not sheltered enough from GCR... and we should be thinking about propulsion first...

EDIT: I re-read the OP, and am not amused. One-way missions are an aberration and abomination, and should not be seriously or even humorously considered. The purpose of manned spaceflight is not simply putting flags where there have been none before, but satisfying mankind's hunger for knowledge about the Universe. As safely as reasonably possible, and with more than negligible chance of return to the families and friends and society. Otherwise, send robots.
 
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SiberianTiger

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Tell that to the crews of Apollos 8 and 10. :p

Apollo 8 and 10 were gradual steps within a program targeted to put man on the Moon. What would you say if the flight of Apollo 8 had been considered enough doing?

The similar Soviet "Zond" program employing 7K-L1 ships was cut short of an actual manned flight due to number of reasons. The biggest deal was pointlessness of such a flight when the Americans already had a LEM for landing.
 

T.Neo

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Isn't the connection between Zarya and Zvezda different from the conventional Progress docking port? Would it be possible to re-dock Pirs or Poisk from the aft port of Zarya?

Other than that, I think propulsion is the primary problem. Obviously some sort of hypergolic Russian upper stage would be the first choice, but it would also have to be modified to connect with the spacecraft and for everything to operate as a single unit.

Is radiation really that much of a problem? What is the difference between the exposure to GCR in LEO and exposure beyond the Van Allen belt?

Also, what of the option of aligning the spacecraft so that the maximum amount of mass is between the crew and the Sun? Maybe this could at least be of help during a solar flare (I believe doing this in the event of a flare was suggested on Apollo).

Obviously the mission would be absurdly dangerous, but a mission with even an 80% chance of death is better than a mission with 100% chance of death...

The ideal candidates might be older cosmonauts who are willing to take on such a dangerous mission. Being older will mean they will also likely be more experienced, which is a good factor in a mission such as this.

Assuming a Mars escape velocity of 4000 m/s and an exhaust velocity of 3196 m/s, a mass ratio of 3.6 would be required to break out of Mars orbit. Assuming a stage dry mass of 5000 kg and a propellant mass of 19 000 kg, roughly seven or eight stages would have to be clustered for a 38 ton spacecraft (7200 kilogram Soyuz, 19 000 kilogram core module, 11.8 tons of... other stuff).

It should be noted that Zvezda particularly, has its own propellant supply to assist in attitude control and reboosting of the ISS. This presumably adds a lot of mass, a good deal of which could potentially be removed for a Mars mission.

Nauka is scheduled to be launched; perhaps it would make a better habitat/core module.

A Mars flyby could be far less demanding and still allow a return. However, the scientific return of such a mission vs. cost would likely be far lower.

Aerobraking has been used by certain Mars probes; I am not sure of its efficacy in this case. Presumably lightweight 'drag panels' could be used to increase aerobraking potential, along with the solar panels on the vehicle. Attaining a circular orbit would likely require many months of aerobraking procedures, which could take up most of the Mars stay time.

Perhaps partial rocket braking would be a good idea, this would require propellant, but perhaps not as much as a full MOI burn.

The main spacecraft and the return stage could be launched seperately to reduce the size of the EDS cluster.

Overall, everything would be very marginal, and very risky with such a low development time and no test flights. The lack of high-performance Russian upper-stages is very limiting. The US posesses a better stage in the form of the Centaur, but does not have the manned capability that Russia does. In addition, boiloff mitigation systems, connectors and control systems would have to be added to the Centaur stage.

Connectors and control systems would also have to be added to a Briz-M derived stage, however the propellants inside are storable and thus perfect in a logistical sense for MOI and TEI, if not perfect performance-wise.

If I'm not mistaken, modifications would have to be made to a Soyuz return capsule.

Such a mission could only be flown within a significant lead-time, which might be 1-2 years. All the required launches would likely usurp all or most Proton rockets available for commercial satellite launches. Cost would be another issue: to ensure proper development and operation, a large amount of money would need to go towards this program. The USA could be of assistance here, as a tiny amount of the huge US defence budget could be shunted towards funding mission development in Russia, for the exchange of flying an American cosmonaut to Mars.

Overall the whole thing really makes you wish about having an Energia-lifted high-energy upper stage as a nice quick solution, or a better habitat architecture, or a nuclear propulsion stage. Without a dedicated architecture, or at least a flexible architecture able to accomodate such flights, such a mission is marginal in its potential for success, and horribly risky.

If we just had that architecture, the enabling architecture for BEO operations, it would make things far, far easier. We don't have that architecture presently, and we've never had it in the entire history of spaceflight.
 

Orbinaut Pete

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Isn't the connection between Zarya and Zvezda different from the conventional Progress docking port? Would it be possible to re-dock Pirs or Poisk from the aft port of Zarya?

Yes - the connection between Zvezda and Zarya is a Hybrid type port, whereas Progresses use the probe & cone system. It would not be possible to dock Pirs or Poisk to the aft of Zarya, because although both Zarya aft and Pirs/Poisk use the Hybrid system, they are both active Hybrid, and you can't dock active-to-active.
 

Capt_hensley

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T.NEO "Is radiation really that much of a problem? What is the difference between the exposure to GCR in LEO and exposure beyond the Van Allen belt?
"

This is a question I've yet to get a good answer to, but from what I gather 6-8 months is a "saturation point" that is looked at as starting boundry.

Now if the MARS missions are supposed to be 3 years, then I'd say there is a definate issue after the first 6-8 months. The victum/astronaut knows they have cancer before they land on Mars. So where does that put a manned station in GEO like my Gateway Station? In the same place between a rock, and a hard place. Getting ISS to Mars would face the same problems. and it would have less shielding than Gateway, not by much, but less in any case. say 1-2%. It's at this point just impractical.

Trying to get a streight answer about the effects of radiation on space travelers is a mixed bag at best. Long duration exposure is bad, but nobody will say how bad. If you find out let me know, with references please.
 

T.Neo

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Interesting article, though this doesn't make sense to me:

Only vegetarians will be allowed on a Mars trip, since meat can't be preserved in space

Er... I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of meat products that are storable for the timeframe of a Mars mission, long-term stabilised food intended for the military as well as canned foods might be a good example, though it isn't like preserved meat is [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biltong"]anything[/ame] new...

Zubrin calling VASIMR a 'hoax' is pretty funny... :uhh:

Is there any actual data on what the GCR flux might be, how it compares to solar radiation, which is more worth shielding against, which would be more vital to shield against, and what the dosage of such a mission would be? Granted, we might not know the exact radiation levels, but someone should at least have made some estimates somewhere...

Does the Earth's magnetic field shield crews in LEO from GCRs as well as solar protons?
 

Capt_hensley

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^ Yeah, there was a study, I'll have to try and look it up, It was in a broader paper on HSF. But it boiled down to TSD. Time Shielding and Distance, it eluded to the fact that we need to reduce the time factor(which with Vasimr) is a great idea and more plausible than shielding or distance.

In Mary Roache's "Packing for Mars" her research lead to a study that included using the food packs as part of the shielding. As you take a food pack off the wall you replace it with a compressed tile of waste materials from prior use. It would take a while and special equipment to make the bricks, but they are a permanent way to shield, and are discarded for earth re-entry. Recycling the water and using a water shield is part of the solution. Heavy walled water tanks with MMS blankets, and they would need to be over 1 meter deep. Heaving all that weight with conventional propulsion is out of the question.(Again Vasimr helps)

Another factor that would help is using modular transport. Send the HAB first, MORS (mars orbit return ship) next, get hab working, then send the Lander into orbit around Mars with the MORS, next send the crew in an AG Shielded transport ship. Rendezvous with the MORS/lander, do the surface mission, Bring MORS back to the transport ship(transfer the bootie) and discard MORS for earth return. The transport ship rendezvous with an earth orbiting re-entry capsule, and the bootie gets transferred into a return capsule of it's own. Both splash down or what ever. MC.

But all this is academic if the shielding isn't thick enough, or exposure isn't limited. You need to shorten the stay on MARS to just two weeks, and all the systems have to work. This would make the trip about 7 months long. A far better duration for super exposure profile missions like MARS 1. You still get cancer, just not terminal cancer.
 

Cras

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Apollo 8 and 10 were gradual steps within a program targeted to put man on the Moon. What would you say if the flight of Apollo 8 had been considered enough doing?

There was the plan to have Apollo go to Venus. No landing there. But I assume those in charge, or those with the money soon came to the thinking we all have, why send people if you aren't going to land?

Martian Space Station would be nice to have, but only have the surface base is built. If I ran the world, that would be in five years, but alas, I seem to smart to be in charge.:facepalm:
 

Codz

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There was the plan to have Apollo go to Venus. No landing there. But I assume those in charge, or those with the money soon came to the thinking we all have, why send people if you aren't going to land?

Martian Space Station would be nice to have, but only have the surface base is built. If I ran the world, that would be in five years, but alas, I seem to smart to be in charge.:facepalm:

For someone who's too smart, you seem to have some spelling issues. Also, it is not physically or financially possible to have so much as a flags and footsteps mission to Mars in 5 years.
 

steph

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I remember a documentary about the ISS on DiscoveryChannel (quite some time ago, I think it was 2002 or 2003), where they were seriously saying that once finished, it will be used as a spaceship to Mars :p
 

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Are you sure it was Discovery and not History Channel? :p
 

Suzy

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Apologies for reviving an old thread, but how about using a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_metal_cooled_reactor"]Liquid metal cooled reactor[/ame] (probably the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_cooled_fast_reactor"]Lead-cooled fast reactor[/ame] version) as a power source for the fictional Mars mission? (I figured they wouldn't used water-cooled as water supplies are limited?) These are apparently used in some Russian submarines so could one be adapted to be placed in a spaceship module? (The Mars-500 mission required 17 to 25 MW of power.)

Edit: Although on second thoughts I don't know if such reactors would work in zero-g?

Another edit: I read that the Topaz reactors are cooled with [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaK"]sodium-potassium alloy[/ame], but that seems unpleasantly explosive!
 
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Tommy

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A couple thoughts:

What makes water a good radiation shield is the hydrogen it contains. Gaseous Hydrogen is too "porous", and liquid hydrogen is heavy and is hard to store for long periods. Currently, the research indicates that certain plastics which have a high hydrogen content could provide reasonably lightweight shielding (as well as some thermal protection). If you aren't concerned with crew survival beyond the mission, I would think that current materials could be used to provide just enough protection to ensure the cosmonaut isn't incapacitated before mission completion.

Also, aside from providing a tiny amount of thrust, modern solar sail designs also offer good protection from solar radiation (but not GCR, which comes from many directions)

As for power, with current tech, nuclear would seem to be the way to go. I'm not aware of any current designs that would proved the desired output with a mass that was feasible, but chances are one could be designed based on existing models.

Given a decade or two, and assuming either the Tokamak or Polywell reactors work out, fusion may be a better answer.

If you don't need to land on Mars, and will settle for a fly-by, there are a few good opportunities for a free-return trajectory to Mars around 2023 - that would drastically reduce the fuel mass required for a round trip.
 
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