looking into interest for a lunar collaboration project

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I have an idea for a project and would like to gauge interest in collaboration.

I would like to build a lunar base of operations as a stepping stone for further exploration, but as I have thought about this, the project seems more suited for a collaborative effort, at least in the scale that I am considering.

First off, I am not looking to exclude what exists in the OFSS, and if possible, would like to integrate the two projects as they both develop. This is not a necessity, however, and this project could include a refueling station in earth orbit to facilitate lunar transportation, as I would like to limit fuel capacity to a somewhat realistic level, even given the exaggerated capacity of the craft that might be used.

I am thinking about a rather large scale base that would be used for extraction of titanium from the moon, which would be used for construction of large scale craft. I would also like to construct a multipurpose station in lunar orbit, for furthering research and development, and possibly later leading to construction of a large interplanetary stack.

I would first like to set a timeline and setting. This would be near to mid future, using SSTO craft such as the XR series, and any modern craft that might be advantageous to the project. I would like to avoid using any craft or technologies that are unfeasable, even given the advanced timeframe, but modifying modern craft to reflect development of existing technologies and emergence of possible technologies is perfectly acceptable.

I would like to use existing addons as much as possible. I would like to be able to organize and launch this project within a reasonable timeline, and not having to build custom modifications would be ideal. I have an idea of some addons that I would like to use, and some that I really consider essential, but am open to suggestions on that front.

I am seeking help developing and implementing this project, as I dont think I have the knowledge necessary to bring this to the "reality" that I would like to see.

So I ask all of my fellow Orbiter junkies, who will join me?

 

[MaverickSawyer]

I know that there is a deployable miner and ore mill that are UCGO compatable, including the ore cargo. Perhaps you could use some of those?

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I know that there is a deployable miner and ore mill that are UCGO compatable, including the ore cargo. Perhaps you could use some of those?

it makes sense. any idea of a location? Orbithangar?

 

[n0mad23]

I think these might be the ones: http://www.orbithangar.com/searchauth.php?search=ashaman42

 

[Therius]

I'm curious to know what other addons you plan on using. What will be used to construct the base on the lunar surface? Burch's blocks?

Just curious. I've thought of doing something similar myself, but have not attempted it on that scale. I just personally completed four missions to place a small station in lunar orbit with the Esastar and Esalab. I also sent a ATV2 for materials and a CTV to transport the first 2 man crew. This is as far as I've gotten. Maybe you guys can inspire me to move forward from just a lunar orbit station.

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I think these might be the ones: http://www.orbithangar.com/searchauth.php?search=ashaman42

That looks cool. Will it work in 2010P1? I have found a great deal of mods similar to that do.

---------- Post added at 05:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 AM ----------

I'm curious to know what other addons you plan on using. What will be used to construct the base on the lunar surface? Burch's blocks?

Just curious. I've thought of doing something similar myself, but have not attempted it on that scale. I just personally completed four missions to place a small station in lunar orbit with the Esastar and Esalab. I also sent a ATV2 for materials and a CTV to transport the first 2 man crew. This is as far as I've gotten. Maybe you guys can inspire me to move forward from just a lunar orbit station.

Are you referring to Space Station Building Blocks? If so, I fully plan to use them, possibly in the lunar station, and I dont see why it wouldnt be feasable to use them on the surface as well, where applicable. I have looked into a great deal of addons for station building, but am a little deficient on the surface base front. I do know there are various things that can easily be used, and have tested a few, but dont have anything set in stone yet.

---------- Post added at 05:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 AM ----------

I need to add that the initial setup for the lunar base will be a temporary facility, as no permanent building materials will be taken to the moon, since the entire idea is to mine the titanium from the moon and use it for construction. Power, materials processing and any specialized equipment will have to be launched, but this isnt a oneshot moon exploration, and several supply missions should be launched before a manned mission ever sets foot on the lunar surface.

refueling in earth orbit may be a concern, so I propose we build a fuel station in orbit with an inclination favorable for lunar transit. I also would like to use Wideawake as a base of operations on the earth, as it has all the facilities that are needed to launch all the missions necessary to complete this project.

I am also thinking starting this with no bases outside of the earth. We are starting from scratch as a commercial lunar operation designed to provide a platform for interplanetary travel, and a foothold somewhere else other than earth.

I took a quick look and found quite a few UCGO compatible structures that might serve our purposes, but it is 1:49 in the AM and I have to work at 7, so I am going to continue this tomorrow.

In the mean time, if anyone has any ideas, would like to ask questions, or would like to tenatively join this project, please feel free to post.

 

[n0mad23]

That looks cool. Will it work in 2010P1? I have found a great deal of mods similar to that do.


In the mean time, if anyone has any ideas, would like to ask questions, or would like to tenatively join this project, please feel free to post.

I'm afraid I haven't used either of these addons before, so can't say if they work in the latest edition or not.

I did have a thought for the early stages, and that is "location." Since you're attempting to create an industrial base, where you decide to create it is going to also really dictate both infrastructure requirements and limitations. Obviously the length of the lunar days and nights is a major concern, and unless you're building at one of the poles nuclear power is probably a necessity.

Building at one of the poles DOES have some major benefits, but unless new data pops up suggesting otherwise, isn't a good location if you're looking for vast quantities of titanium. The possibility of near perpetual sunlight is certainly attractive, as is the ambient temperature. For example, with the Sun directly overhead at the Moon's equator, the temperature is around 120 C, but at 85 deg. north or south the temperature in the sunlight is around -59 C.

I've attached a couple of resource maps that might prove helpful.

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I'm afraid I haven't used either of these addons before, so can't say if they work in the latest edition or not.

I did have a thought for the early stages, and that is "location." Since you're attempting to create an industrial base, where you decide to create it is going to also really dictate both infrastructure requirements and limitations. Obviously the length of the lunar days and nights is a major concern, and unless you're building at one of the poles nuclear power is probably a necessity.

Building at one of the poles DOES have some major benefits, but unless new data pops up suggesting otherwise, isn't a good location if you're looking for vast quantities of titanium. The possibility of near perpetual sunlight is certainly attractive, as is the ambient temperature. For example, with the Sun directly overhead at the Moon's equator, the temperature is around 120 C, but at 85 deg. north or south the temperature in the sunlight is around -59 C.

I've attached a couple of resource maps that might prove helpful.

Ive seen the maps. Most of the high concentrations of titanium are on the near side, and so a combination of solar and nuclear will be necessary, along with storage batteries.

I would love to do a polar power station, but getting the energy from the pole to the construction base might be a problem, unless we go with microwave transmission, but that would require an active satellite, or network of satellites, to ensure reliable power transfer when it is needed. And lunar stationary satellites are out.

Perhaps a lunar orbiting power station? simply build a large solar collector in orbit and when it passes overhead, it beams power down to the base using focused microwaves?

 

[MaverickSawyer]

I'm afraid I haven't used either of these addons before, so can't say if they work in the latest edition or not.

I have tested them, and they work fine. The ore and rock output can be altered in their respective config files.

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I have tested them, and they work fine. The ore and rock output can be altered in their respective config files.

That sounds great. Thanks for that.

---------- Post added at 11:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

If we (whoever does end up joining me on this, if anyone) need to have mods created for this project, I am fully capable of making models for nearly anything we need, given reference photos. I was attempting to design a vehicle, and modeled an entire engine, full suspension and brakes/wheels, so doing mechanical objects and the like is no real problem.

I would like to know if anyone has used the surface base creator listed [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2796"]here[/ame] in 2010P1, because it might help a great deal. Other than this and a few things here and there, I am finding a deficiency in individual base components. Perhaps someone has a few ideas on this? I am up for modelling any of the structures (or anything else we might need), but will need help with the textures and the actual insertion of the mod into orbiter.

Also, the more I think about the power issue, perhaps a solar farm coupled with a high temperature fission reactor might be an ideal solution. The solar farm could run strictly for power generation, and the reactor could be used for electrical generation and heat production. I would argue in favor of a gas cooled pebble bed design, for its simplicity (it lacks the complex cooling systems in typical reactors, and since gasses such as helium do not absorb neutrons and do not dissolve internal parts of the reactor, much less maintenance is needed), and the fact that helium for cooling could be mined directly from the moon itself.

Also, is there any interest from anyone (tentative as it might be right now) to actually join me on this and get some details worked out?

 

[n0mad23]

Maybe consider going for a Thorium pebble bed design? I have to dig through my pdf library, but do seem pretty sure that there's a lot of Thorium on the Moon and it's potentially an even safer system than using Uranium. I'm fairly sure that the Chinese are playing with this currently (in China, not the Moon).

I'm afraid I can only give thought and suggestions to this project at this point. Looking at my own addon creation, I'm certain I'm going to be bogged down with animations for a long, long time.

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I still like the idea of a solar collection station in lunar orbit beaming power to the surface, but since a lunar stationary satellite would reside in the apparent "orbit" of the earth, this seems to be a bit of a problem for consistency. perhaps a station that orbits the moon at a rate closer to 4 times per lunar day? I figure the line of sight would be good for a substantial amount of time even at that rate, somewhere around 3 days of line of sight until the station would be out of range at one go, with an orbital radius of roughly 22,400 km. (someone check me on that, as im simply solving keplers equations with the moon's mass and my desired orbital period)

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ----------

Maybe consider going for a Thorium pebble bed design? I have to dig through my pdf library, but do seem pretty sure that there's a lot of Thorium on the Moon and it's potentially an even safer system than using Uranium. I'm fairly sure that the Chinese are playing with this currently (in China, not the Moon).

I'm afraid I can only give thought and suggestions to this project at this point. Looking at my own addon creation, I'm certain I'm going to be bogged down with animations for a long, long time.

The thorium designs I have looked at look good. And yes, the chinese are the only ones that currently use that tech, as the germans had an accident with theirs right around the time of chernobyl and they shut it down shortly after.

thoughts and suggestions are always welcome. Do you mind me asking what you are working on?

EDIT: after a bit of digging, it seems that the thorium and titanium are fairly well concentrated in some of the same general areas, which might help things as well.

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I see that quite a few people have looked at this thread, but there doesnt seem to be much interest.

Is there anything that I can do to change that? More specifics? Different target? Or should I just forget about this for now and go it on my own?

 

[MaverickSawyer]

what about a molten salt-thorium reactor? It's theoretically safer than pebble beds if designed properly, capable of making a complete shutdown on its own. It was in Popular Science earlier this year.

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

what about a molten salt-thorium reactor? It's theoretically safer than pebble beds if designed properly, capable of making a complete shutdown on its own. It was in Popular Science earlier this year.

One reason I was thinking gas cooled is because of the relative abundance of helium in the regolith. Helium is inert and wouldnt corrode the internals of the reactor, and give that splitting water is going to be necessary, it might behoove us to use a high temp output reactor.

Thorium, if i remember correctly, will shut down on its own regardless of the coolant, as thorium is not fissile, and is not critical in the reactor. Therefore, an external neutron source is usually needed anyway.

please correct me if i am wrong on this.

---------- Post added at 10:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 PM ----------

Im thinking the UCGO deployable structures and units like the mining units posted above will be perfectly acceptable with one caveat: in order to actually deploy the unit, we actually ship the equivalent materials for the structure or unit being deployed.

Speaking of which, Has anyone used [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=3929"]HLV Lunar base v1.2a[/ame] in 2010p1?

If so, this will take care of most of the surface base building that will be needed.

We might have to create the nuclear reactor, but modelling something like that should be a trivial thing. I will get some reference pictures for some small scale nuclear reactors and see about throwing something together. (i need to do some cleaning before I can run anything, but that shouldnt be too bad.

---------- Post added 10-04-11 at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was 10-03-11 at 10:10 PM ----------

I installed the HLV addon, and it seems that I am missing the config file for z14arms. Does anyone have any information concerning this?

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Just use URMS!

 

[PhantomCruiser]

Speaking of which, Has anyone used HLV Lunar base v1.2a in 2010p1?

Yes, it's a pretty good setup. My own VSA uses this as a lunar base (along with the GDI miner).

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Yes, it's a pretty good setup. My own VSA uses this as a lunar base (along with the GDI miner).

Good stuff. Also it seems to use standard docking ports as well, so other modules COULD be integrated into the complex later, if needed.

Also, in all of my looking, it seems that reactor buildings tend to be nondescript concrete buildings, and I have seen quite a few cylindrical buildings already, so it may be the case that nothing needs to be built.

Maybe I missed it in the HLV documentation, but is there a list of module names somewhere so that I can spawn them within orbiter?

As far as a landing site, I have looked at the mineral maps, and one of the better overlaps that I can find happens to be situated on Mare Imbrium. perhaps anywhere within the spots marked E, F, or G?

Does anyone see any problems with that? It would seem plentiful in thorium, titanium, iron, and helium. the other sparse resources will need to be transported, but that shouldnt be a problem. I would imagine a few unmanned supply missions could be launched before anyone ever lands.

Oh, and I was going to set this up as earth is the only body with any settlements, and all the other bases and the like are going to be removed. I figure that since this is a prototype lunar base, it would be highly unlikely that humanity would have ventured past the moon before setting up shop ON the moon.

 

[xx_mortekai_xx]

After a bit of a hiatus, I have begun the project. I am starting with a LEO station for fuel and short term stays before moving toward a lunar setup.

Perhaps the time passing will have sparked interest in this type of project? Especially with the recent mention of actually having a base on the lunar surface.

 

[Lord Wasteland]

I am currently working on an SLS, so we can use that to launch payloads into parking orbits, and then send them on their way.