Flight Question Mars Transfer Vehicle.

Astro SG Wise

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Thanks for the report, orbitingpluto. Oh, for acronyms, I didn't take that into account. The ones I have been using most lately are these...

MOHV: Mars Orbital Habitat Vehicle
MTV: Mars Transfer Vehicle (Lander)
MPCV: Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle (Orion)
RNS: Re-usable Nuclear Shuttle
LBS: Lunar Booster Stage
CPB: Chemical Propulsion Booster
RBS: Return Booster System
yadayadaydada... :blahblah:

Anyway, I kinda figured that the people who made the original designs knew their options, and that they were trying to figure out the best (DRM/MEM). But will NASA use these concepts? With the "cancellation" of the Constellation program, will NASA still use things like DRM? I expect they might as well re-adopt their original versions, because they are good functioning concepts, but I also think that by 2035, NASA wouldn't have enough money to build multiple super stacks, if you follow what I mean. Thank you for the suggestions and good points!
 

francisdrake

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It is fun to play around with makeshift stacks of vessels, and Orbiter allows pretty much abusing them for atmospheric entries they were not really designed for.

Somewhat more realistic would be to select vessels designed for the job. To me the best mars landers appear to be those from the Mars Design Reference mission (DRM).
There are a few others, like Mars for less, or the MEM and Ares (both misssing modern features like UMMU/UGCO), but they get the job done. The tasks of landing a spacecraft on Mars, and even more to lift a crew back to orbit are extremly difficult.
Maybe future Mars landers will look like a combination of a sky-crane and an Apollo LM in an aeroshell ...
 

Astro SG Wise

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Thanks guys. Here is the CTV cargo lander from Constellation adapted to the RNS Mars Mission design.

picture.php


---------- Post added at 12:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

Now, is having a nuclear or atomic booster in space?
 

orbitingpluto

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Thanks guys. Here is the CTV cargo lander from Constellation adapted to the RNS Mars Mission design.

picture.php


---------- Post added at 12:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

Now, is having a nuclear or atomic booster in space?

It seems on my end that you haven't posted a picture(you did, it might not be viewable by me), and your question isn't understandable. I'm sorry to say that's about it from me- two feet of snow fell recently, and shifting all that powder has done a number one the time and energy I would normally offer to Orbiter-related stuff.
 

Astro SG Wise

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Scratch that. What I meant was, is it safer / more efficient to have a nuclear atomic booster in space? I read a paper saying that nuclear powered boosters would be too dangerous, and that chemical propulsion would be better, for reasons I am unaware of. Of course, it is 'nuclear', which gives room for problems. If the picture didn't show up, I posted it again. It has a link to the gallery I am using.

picture.php

View image in gallery
 

francisdrake

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Nuclear vs. non-nuclear:
Having a nuclear reactor in space would be an enormous source of thermal and electricl energy. I guess most of have visited the Atomic Rockets page.

On the other hand the politcal acceptance of nuclear power has declined a lot since the 1960s. And the reactors actually flown were in the low kW range, not really powerful rocket engines.

For the near future I would rather bet on chemical and solar electric engines. This would allow for journeys to Venus and Mars and missions out to the asteroid belt.
 

orbitingpluto

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Scratch that. What I meant was, is it safer / more efficient to have a nuclear atomic booster in space? I read a paper saying that nuclear powered boosters would be too dangerous, and that chemical propulsion would be better, for reasons I am unaware of. Of course, it is 'nuclear', which gives room for problems. If the picture didn't show up, I posted it again. It has a link to the gallery I am using.

picture.php

View image in gallery

Still no picture, and the link to the gallery comes up with an invalid album error. I dutifully did as the error asked and sent a message to the admin. You should see if if the gallery is set to public, if not, then that would easily explain why I can't see the gallery or the picture inside.

About your question- one reason, leaving accidents aside for a moment, is radiation exposure. Every time the engine lights, the nuclear rocket is spewing radioactive exhaust, and the engine itself gets "hot" as well, leading to some amount of radiation winging it's way to where the crew is. The shielding on the reactor part of the engine, the distance from the crew to the reactor, and anything in between(structure, propellent, whatever) does decrease the amount of radiation they are exposed to, but it's still exposure.

Crews on a journey to Mars will face getting irradiated from sources like the Sun and galactic cosmic rays(GCRs), so the long they spend traveling between Earth and Mars, the more exposure they will get from natural sources. One way to minimize that exposure is use a nuclear rocket, benefiting from it's high ISP(relative to chemical engines) to enable faster trajectories that should lead to less exposure overall, even with the portable radioactive flame-dragon pushing them around. The same high ISPs also mean fewer kgs of propellent for the same oomph, meaning less mass has to be delivered to LEO to feed the beasts of burden: allowing smaller, cheaper launch vehicles, or fewer flights, That's the hope, though the trade-off between radiation from the nuclear powered rocket and the exposure time the rocket prevents isn't a sure thing. One sure thing about a nuclear stage is that it will cost more than a chemical stage.


That brings us to reason two, nuclear rocketry is capital intensive, both of the money-kind and human: nuclear propulsion on the scale needed for Mars is still a while from flight-ready, and getting to get it there means dealing with a reactor that lives in a rocket engine(and vice-versa), demanding special people to work the problems and the money to pay for everything. And of course, development would take time. It is, leaving aside potential catastrophes, the biggest hurdle to putting a nuclear rocket in space. I think you can imagine why coming up with both the money and patience to see a nuclear rocket stage sized for Mars flights through to a productive use would be difficult to imagine.

The last reason is of course, is potential accidents and general safety(leaving radiation exposure as it's own separate thing). There is of course people who are dead-set against nuclear anything, but nuclear rockets present challenges that are real and to deserve some questioning. Making sure the reactor's container could survive likely launch failures is one thing that should be addressed, along with disposal, to name two that I'm aware of.

Now, the above might scare you off of investigating nuclear options for your Mars mission, but nuclear engines do have the advantages of higher ISPs than chemical engines, and what that means for both the rocket and other parts of the architecture(the LVs that launch it, the payloads it moves around) isn't something I think should be dropped lightly.

TL;DR version: nuclear rockets are more efficient than chemical rockets and could enable faster trajectories, but pose a bunch of problems linked to their radioactivity and are more capital intensive than chemical engines.


Couldn't you use SkylabII?

Certainly seems reasonable enough as a habitat, though Skylab 2 might not have a feature like a shielded place to sleep and hide from big solar events in, which would be really handy on the way to and from Mars. I say "might not" because it should be easy enough(engineering-wise) to add in, though it will kick up the mass of Skylab 2 by quite a lot, depending on the materials that are doing the shielding. Atomic Rockets should have the info you'll need, but I'm at a loss for a specific section and I can't go searching right now.
 

Astro SG Wise

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Thanks for all the points. I just like coming up with new/combo ideas for stuff, so all of this helps. I really don't intend for having a big addon development wave, or anything, just ideas for concepts. Just a few questions...

1) Yep, I am lost. What in the world is ISP?
2) In terms of Cargo Landing (a random topic), wouldn't the landers used in the Constellation Mars Mission version be harder to land than the Troy modules because of their immense size? Is there a better way to land cargo on the surface? What about [ame="http://orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=6429"]BM[/ame]?
3) Regarding Skylab II, how much mass would you really need to add to make it 'radiation proof', or at least acceptable for solar radiation emergency huddles? (I put quotations in radiation proof, because really, it won't be entirely that.)

Part of me is still holding on to my old Phoenix LTV ideas :p, and I have been coming up with some ideas for how to add aero-braking onto the Lynx (more on that later)...
 

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ISP - specific impulse - is measure of effectivity of rocket. It's also called 'effective exhaust velocity', meaning velocity with which you exhaust is leaving the nozzle. Faster exhaust gives you better 'kick' so you need less fuel to make same change of velocity (delta-V). That means you need less propellant for the same mission, or you can have bigger mission (for example faster trajectory to Mars) with the same amount of propellant. olid rockets have ISp around 250s, liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen have around 450s, nuclear thermal rocket (NERVA) has IIRC around 1600s and ion engines can have thousands of seconds, but it goes with very small thrust, which is limiting their using. I recommand to look up 'Tsiolkovsky rocket equation', there is very nicely to see how elementar specific impulse is for rockets.
 

orbitingpluto

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Thanks for all the points. I just like coming up with new/combo ideas for stuff, so all of this helps. I really don't intend for having a big addon development wave, or anything, just ideas for concepts. Just a few questions...

1) Yep, I am lost. What in the world is ISP?
2) In terms of Cargo Landing (a random topic), wouldn't the landers used in the Constellation Mars Mission version be harder to land than the Troy modules because of their immense size? Is there a better way to land cargo on the surface? What about BM?
3) Regarding Skylab II, how much mass would you really need to add to make it 'radiation proof', or at least acceptable for solar radiation emergency huddles? (I put quotations in radiation proof, because really, it won't be entirely that.)

Part of me is still holding on to my old Phoenix LTV ideas :p, and I have been coming up with some ideas for how to add aero-braking onto the Lynx (more on that later)...

If your worried about going down a path of endless tweaking and development, you might consider just finding a complete, all elements included Mars mission addon package you like and fly that. Even rearranging payloads to fly on a different rocket could constitute addon development, and from what you've said here your already committed to that path.:shifty:

I think if you make things easy on yourself, like limiting the extent of any modifications, and reusing available addons as opposed to looking for something better, you should be able to keep everything simple enough to pull off.

Anyway your questions:

1: Malky covered this one well, though the correct ISP for NERVA is only 850(vacuum ISP, not sea-level), which is still twice that of the best chemical engine available, the Space Shuttle Main Engine(452 vacuum). [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse"]Wikipedia has a article on ISP[/ame], and I would recommend reading it to get a more in-depth explanation of it. I'd second the recommendation about the rocket equation as well. At the very least, you'll need it to figure out if your chosen rocket stage can push your chosen payloads to Mars once you hit that phase of planning.

2: The Troy landers, like the habitats, don't have any data on them. For comparison purposes, that makes them less than useless. I don't know what you mean by "Constellation landers" since as far as I know Constellation did not produce any Mars lander designs. I would guess you might mean the DRM 5.0 designs, but since the DRMs are studies, they are part of official programs.

3: I don't know exactly, but for what I understand it should end up increasing the mass of Skylab by maybe 30mt or more. It depends on the volume being inclosed, the materials chosen, and the worst case scenario the shelter can deal with. I was too tired last time to realize that this one page on Atomic Rockets was the one I was looking for, but here it is now.
 

Astro SG Wise

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Here is a drawing I made of the latest MTV lander design...

picture.php


It is a combination of the MEM, BM-Lander, and Pheonix/Lynx Landers. In short, this is the landing process:

1) Re-entry burn with DRM fuel.
2) Detach DRM engine.
3) Re-entry aerobraking with heatshield.
4) Extra Deceleration with Supersonic Decelerator Apparatus.
5) Jettison Aerobrake System.
6) Main engines fire.
7) Landing gear deploy.
8) Land
9) [prior to takeoff] remove drop tanks
10) Takeoff
11) Landing gear retract
12) Orbit
13) Rendezvous with stack.

Now, with this design, some ideas and, of course, conflicts arose.

The DRM idea (which is not an acronym, just the first thing that came to my mind :lol:) was a detatchable engine on the outside of the heatsheild system. The idea came from this MEM video. There would be fuel in the heatsheild, and that would be used up in re-entry burn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbvM5HuQRE (Ares Mission to Mars)

Secondly, the tanks (stolen from the Lynx design) are purely drop tanks, that are used up in landing. That would give for more fuel use.

So, I know that this is just purely an idea, and I am open to any suggestions (you can be as honest as you want :thumbup:). Would this, in theory, possibly be able to work?

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

Oops! Just realized that the album was private! Here is the pic, if you did not see it.

picture.php


---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

Oh yes, and the supersonic decelerators are an idea by NASA to add surface area for deceleration in the Martian atmosphere.

Here is the pdf

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/737628main_Final_LDSD_Fact_Sheet_3-26-13.pdf

It has been tested before.

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/ldsd/index.html
 

orbitingpluto

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I was hoping someone more qualified would stick their head in here, but I guess I'll just muddle along.

Anyway, do you have a rough gross estimate of stuff propellent capabilities, engines, dry masses, and measurements? While the sequence and intended working is important, it's in the numbers where everything gets decided, and without some basic figures I can't even begin to find out if it could work.

Assuming you don't have those figures though, keep in mind you have to work backwards through the mission to figure out the requirements the vehicle needs to fit(such as takeoff from Mars surface to low Mars orbit), then figure out things like engines and propellent amounts to meet the requirements. Atomic Rockets has more info than I could hope to present here, and if your serious about working this out to the point of being able to tell if it could work on paper it should do an able job of guiding you.
 

Astro SG Wise

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In answer to figures, no, no, no, and no again! I'm sorry, I don't have it. I also tried Michael Chr's Lynx, and figured that a lander of that size would lack fuel necessities. Thanks for the points though.
 

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Are there any usefull parachute and Aeroshell "vessels" out there?

If you can get a descent deltaV from aerobraking then all the rocket engine would have to deliver was the remaining DeltaV.
According to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v#mediaviewer/File:Delta-Vs_for_inner_Solar_System.svg

The dV requirement from LMO to Mars Surface is 4100 m/s. You have to count in gravity drag which will raise this but on the other hand if you could get say 2500 m/s then the remaining DeltaV would be something comparable to a lunar lander.

Having said that the requirement from surface to LMO is quite steep - something close to 5000 m/s I would guess counting in gravity induced drag.
It would be quite a large ascent vehicle.
 

Astro SG Wise

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I did a little more thinking on this topic, and a few more questions arose.

picture.php


This is a recent picture of me playing around with Michael's Lynx LTV modified lander. I tried to take off, but the Lynx wouldn't budge. Is that a realistic engine? If so, then this lander would never work for Mars. If you think about it though, when I looked at the DRM lander pictures, the MTV and the landers for the DRM mission packaged seemed relatively similar. What would happen if you added a heat shield, supersonic decelerators, and a parachute, as mentioned by Michael_Chr in the post above me, were added. It seems that it would work quite well, with enough fuel to reach orbit without a return vehicle.

picture.php


As shown in this photo, this was my most recent design. Are the DRM landers about the same relative size? How is it that we know that these work. If a design like this were combined with these lander, then the heat shield would slow the vehicle down, a parachute would aid air braking, and then a minimal amount of fuel would be used, saving fuel for a single vehicle takeoff. This saves the risk of landing a super huge lander, as proposed by the Constellation program. Wouldn't a single, small, compact vehicle for landing and and ascent be easier than rendezvous to a massive lander and a separate mini-orion ascent vehicle being used? A cargo stack could bring not only the mission cargo, but the MTV lander, if the crew stack couldn't take it due to weight.

picture.php


Secondly was the best way to get humans to mars. Is nuclear power more efficient than chemical propulsion, such as helium?

Any opinion is welcome. Thanks
 

orbitingpluto

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Wouldn't a single, small, compact vehicle for landing and and ascent be easier than rendezvous to a massive lander and a separate mini-orion ascent vehicle being used? A cargo stack could bring not only the mission cargo, but the MTV lander, if the crew stack couldn't take it due to weight.

Cutting out rendezvous and using the wee-est lander possible would be easier in the sense the piloting is less complex, but there are trade-offs. Like where is all the surface gear, or habitats? Bundling the hab functions into your ascent vehicle/lander would make it heavier, and unless your aiming for a few days at most on the Martian surface, the 'nauts need more than the bare minimum of space to work and live in. Compact, little lander/ascent vehicles make sense for short duration sortie-style missions, but(opinion warning) I don't see the point in sending people to Mars for a brief sortie.

Splitting up the mission elements(habitat, stuff, ascent vehicle, and whatnot) has the benefit of making each bit more efficient, optimized to it's use. The trade off there is having to rendezvous the split up parts on the surface, but there's going to be trade off no matter what path you choose.


Is nuclear power more efficient than chemical propulsion, such as helium?

I don't know what you mean by helium, since I haven't heard of it used as a chemical fuel. If I had to hazard a guess, I might say you mistook helium for hydrogen. Also, whatever fuel your intending to burn, you ought to specify a oxidizer.

A quick refresher in case you need it: chemical rockets(in general) work because their propellents react to each other, combusting with enough oomph that they force the combustion products out, and thereby producing thrust. Combustion of course requires a fuel and a oxydizer- fuel is stuff like kerosene, hydrogen, Aerozine 50, etc; and oxidizers range from good old oxygen(liquid or not) to like compounds like H2O2, HNO3, and then straight up scary stuff like fluorine. Since you ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopropellant"]usually[/ame]) can't have a chemical engine run on one propellent, you should point out the oxiydizer/fuel mix, with some examples of saying so looking like:

()Kerosene and liquid oxygen
()Kerosene+ lox(Liquid Oxygen)
()Kerolox

To use one well know combination as an example.


Anyway, Nuclear engines heat their propellents, and instead of sending superheated whatnot down a pipe to spin a turbine like in a power station, it spews it out a nozzle to produce thrust. As far as propellents go, a great deal of people pick hydrogen, since it has the lightest element(meaning it's easier to accelerate, allowing higher exhaust velocities than with heavier atoms), but you can in theory heat up anything in the reactor and get some thrust out of it. It's more complicated the closer you try to make real-life, but that's neither here nor there.

So, getting back on tangent, would nuclear powered rockets be more efficient than chemical powered rockets?

Yes in general, no depending on circumstance. Hydrogen powered NERVA engines beat the best chemical propellent combo(lox+hydrogen) by hundreds of ISP, and things may have improved since NERVA stopped development back in the 1970s. But there's a limit to how small a nuclear reactor can be, and if the payload requirements are small enough, the chemical rocket can be more efficient than nuclear one despite having a lower ISP, because the chem rocket doesn't have a nuclear reactor as part of it's dry mass.
 

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Could 'Helium' refer to Helium-3, which would implicate a fusion engine?

Regarding the perils of getting down to Mars surface and, even worse, getting back up to orbit: Mars is a planet, big enough to make these operations a nightmare. To get back up would rather require landing a fully fueld Falcon 9 rocket safely on its surface, ready for launch back into orbit. This is closer to reality than an Apollo LM with a heatshield.

The idea of splitting the mission into a separate lander and a Mars ascent vehicle may look tempting, but has a danger of its own: If the landing approach fails, the crew of the lander would be doomed, as they cannot abort the landing.
 

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So far a concept like this[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5208"]http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5208[/ame] is what I have used for Mars landings. But these landers are big so maybe just follow the concept.
 
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