McCain Chooses Palin as Running Mate

[Urwumpe]

I certainly wouldn't have said things the way Eveningsky did, but I do have some questions and comments about these points:

1. Why do you think unemployment in European countries is higher than in the US? I see there's been a notable drop in German unemployment recently -- down to around 8.5 percent or so, while US unemployment is UP now, to 5.7% as of July. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.

2. Of course most Muslim immigrants into Europe aren't Arabs. I guess, ironically, most Arabs are either too rich to want to immigrate or too poor to be able to. As for your other comment here, I'm sure you realize that Wahhabism is just one particular flavor of conservative Sunnism. There are other such flavors, such as Deobandi Sunnism in Pakistan (although the distinction between Wahhabism and Deobandism is becoming largely a matter of history, as doctrines in the two groups become nearly indistinquishable). And its difficult these days to be able to distinguih core Wahhabi doctrine from what unerlies many of the fatwas that come from places like Al Azhar in Egypt.

You make the comment that Muslim immigrants are not only employees, but employers. This seems like a good observation, since new immigrants are very often more entrepreneurial than natives -- they have to be, and the same kind of personalities that motivate immigration often motivate entrepreneurialism. But I have a question: Is your perception that this immigrant entrepreneurialism continues on into the second and third generation of Muslim immigrants in Europe?

3. Continuing on about second and third generation Muslim immigrants, I've seen a number of studies indicating that these groups are far more likely to hold Islamist opinions than their parents, and mor likely to become involved in Islamist groups. Is it your prception that this is true? If so, I wonder why. Immigrant experience in the US has been almost uniformly opposite of this, with second and third generation imigrants becoming less interested in the politics and culture of their parents' native land. Is there something in the immigrant experience in Europe that might explain this phenomenon, if its true?

1. Just normal fluctuations. I think the unemployment in the USA is currently rising because of the financial crisis, while Germany for example is mostly unaffected by it directly. Also, the recent drop in unemployment did not have much to do with politics or economics, but had just been a small fluctuation, as most of the new jobs had been limited and will be quickly fired again, when the economy worsens again.

2. Depends, as with native families, mostly on the family. You have families which have a very strong trend to take chances, and others, who are happy with less ambitious goals. One problem which hinders the second or third generation in Germany at least, is the school system, which is not without reason criticized by UN as unjust and discriminating.

First of all, the German school system punishes boys, regardless where they are from. For the same effort, girls get better grades as boys, just like psychologists found out lately.

This is problem is even worse, when you come from a family with patriarchal structures. It takes time to overcome these role models, and when the boys of the family have to be much better to reach similar education standards as their parents, it is sure frustrating and hindering.

Next, the german school system is very bad in teaching immigrants the german language and bad skills in the German language is a reason in germany to recommend boys to lower grade schools (we have three levels of higher school, not just one). So, even when you are smart, if you are not able to express this smartness, you will be designated as stupid in the German school system. This goes on even into university.

That brings us to 3: When you are frustrated by a unjust school system, have the desire to be something special, but can't shine by your intelligence or work, radicals will have easy play with their offers: Have a large group to belong to, be accepted inside this group and get respect for your work there. Muslim kids can go to the islamists, German Kids join Neonazi organizations or the few remaining left-wing radicals.

A very simple and old mechanism, which also happens in Afghanistan... guess why the Taliban target schools, regardless which kind of school it is.

 

[GregBurch]

Here's an interesting tidbit:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1017129.html

Democratic vice-presidential candidate Joe Biden was quoted Monday as telling senior Israeli officials behind closed doors that the Jewish state will have to reconcile itself to a nuclear Iran.

In the unsourced report, Army Radio also quoted Biden as saying that he opposed "opening a additional military and diplomatic front."

A theory: Israelis intelligence players are masters at disinformation and double- and triple-plays. This smells like a planted story, intended to get Obama/Biden to deny it, with the implication that they would support a strike against Iran.

Perhaps similarly with this:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1220186494776

The Dutch intelligence service, the AIVD, has called off an operation aimed at infiltrating and sabotaging Iran's weapons industry due to an assessment that a US attack on the Islamic Republic's nuclear program is imminent, according to a report in the country's De Telegraaf newspaper on Friday.

... although it's sourced outside of Israel. Perhaps a Dutch speaker could provide some feedback on the reliability of De Telegraaf. Usually, Israeli intelligence double-play material like this gets floated out on Debka or similar sources. J-Post especially tends to be pretty immune to being played by the IDF et al.

 

[simonpro]

When I click that link I don't see the article.

Anyway, based on your quote: Telegraaf is one of the biggest newspapers in Holland, and is generally fairly reliable, although they go a little over the top. This is no exception, they are correct.
As far as I know* it wasn't a sabotage operation, it was knowledge gaining - and they already had an informer in place for some time so it's not exactly a called off operation but more of a cancelled operation, they've taken the guy out the country.
Not entirely sure it's because they think the USA is going to invade either, could be that they thought it was too dangerous for their man in Iran and decided to take him to safety.

*(edit) Which probably isn't that much.

 

[GregBurch]

When I click that link I don't see the article.

Anyway, based on your quote: Telegraaf is one of the biggest newspapers in Holland, and is generally fairly reliable, although they go a little over the top. This is no exception, they are correct.
As far as I know* it wasn't a sabotage operation, it was knowledge gaining - and they already had an informer in place for some time so it's not exactly a called off operation but more of a cancelled operation, they've taken the guy out the country.
Not entirely sure it's because they think the USA is going to invade either, could be that they thought it was too dangerous for their man in Iran and decided to take him to safety.

*(edit) Which probably isn't that much.

the link I meant to draw attention to was the one to the JPost article. The other one was one of those annoying rollover links in the text I copied -- I've deleted it now.

Thanks for the info. So there are news stories in the Dutch press about specific intelligence sources and "means and methods?"I guess the New York Times isn't the only newspaper that tries to get spies killed! (Just kidding -- sort of ...)

 

[Andy44]

One of the things I like about Palin is that she's reportedly a "hockey mom". Hockey is a sport I like, therefore Palin will make a great Spare President. How's that for an intuitive leap?

 

[Urwumpe]

One of the things I like about Palin is that she's reportedly a "hockey mom". Hockey is a sport I like, therefore Palin will make a great Spare President. How's that for an intuitive leap?

Well, as it goes now, she is now a pretty annoying risk for McCain... Now she made public that her 17 year old daughter is pregnant, after rumors had already been around, that she was actually the mother of Trig...

Well, anyway, the story about Palins pretty late pregnancy with Trig is also not without doubts, as she literally had the birth between two appointments... would be interesting to see what else will get found out in the short time available... after all, McCains vita is old news, and had only little surprises.

Would sure be a minor problem for a democrat candidate (though republicans would burn the candidates for that), but what effect will it have for a republican?

 

[Andy44]

Well, teenage girls do get pregnant sometimes. That's why dads have shotguns...

I kind of like her, but she's not really the one you vote for, she's just the redundant unit. And I don't like the primary unit.

 

[Urwumpe]

I kind of like her, but she's not really the one you vote for, she's just the redundant unit. And I don't like the primary unit.

Well, there we are opposite. I quite like the primary unit, but I can't find any love for the redundant unit. But I think that I like the other primary unit a bit more, even though I have the problem that I also don't like his redundant unit.

 

[GregBurch]

It turns out Palin's daughter is human. How deeply ironic that the ultra-feminist left is now saying that she is a bad mother, ignoring her children for her career. Such deliciousness can only happen in real life -- in fiction it would seem contrived.

For what it's worth, the McCain team was well aware of the daughter's pregnancy before selecting McCain.

 

[Urwumpe]

It turns out Palin's daughter is human. How deeply ironic that the ultra-feminist left is now saying that she is a bad mother, ignoring her children for her career. Such deliciousness can only happen in real life -- in fiction it would seem contrived.

I think, that's just what you get, when you do your election campaign, in the US way, by presenting the family. And it is especially worse, when you advocate "no sex before marriage", but obviously have not even the power to convince her own daughter for it.

And luckily, the old ultra-feminists are no going down the drain, in favor of the image, that women trying to be the better men is somewhat flawed...

For what it's worth, the McCain team was well aware of the daughter's pregnancy before selecting McCain.

Well, they say so now. I doubt you can something else, when you can't revert the selection.

Also, the edit wars in Wikipedia are again more interesting to read, than the article itself. Do you want to bet, that she has far more corpses hiding in her basement?

My theory, why McCain needed so long to become president candidate: He just has a very boring life as a good citizen since he returned from Vietnam. In Germany, such a guy would not only sort the garbage, but also have garden gnomes in his well-tended allotment garden. And is active in a badger dog club.

 

[Eagle]

I think, that's just what you get, when you do your election campaign, in the US way, by presenting the family. And it is especially worse, when you advocate "no sex before marriage", but obviously have not even the power to convince her own daughter for it.

This has to potential to backfire on Democrats if they press the issue too much. Remarks like Kerry made regarding Cheney's daughter are something to be avoided.

Obama is likely classy enough not to make such a mistake, but who knows.

 

[GregBurch]

My theory, why McCain needed so long to become president candidate: He just has a very boring life as a good citizen since he returned from Vietnam. In Germany, such a guy would not only sort the garbage, but also have garden gnomes in his well-tended allotment garden. And is active in a badger dog club.

Just a quick "meta-note:" A lot of people would find this comment intensely insulting. I know you think it's clever, and I'm sure I'm guilty of the same sort of thing, but this struck me as a good example of why threads get closed. Just to be quite clear, the "sort the garbage" comment is what really cuts. Do you really know enough about the guy to make a comment like that? I'm sure you made this little comment quite quickly. But someone might read this and get very angry, and then post something a little more aggressive. Then more aggression in response, etc.

I don't know -- I don't like to be a scold, so you can take this comment cum grano salis. There are certainly forum members who annoy me -- some a lot. And I am dead certain that I annoy quite a few. Perhaps, I'm writing this to myself ...

 

[Urwumpe]

This has to potential to backfire on Democrats if they press the issue too much. Remarks like Kerry made regarding Cheney's daughter are something to be avoided.

If I remember correctly, Kerry's words against Cheneys daughter had also been pretty classless. After all, it was about the choice of an adult, and not Cheney...

Obama is likely classy enough not to make such a mistake, but who knows.

Well, he could sure find something to exploit this, and if it only comes to the most important currency in politics: credibility. After all, he also so far managed to stay away from the low level attacks from McCain's team, instead of attacking him that way, too.

I think in the USA, it could be bad to be too classy.

 

[GregBurch]

If I remember correctly, Kerry's words against Cheneys daughter had also been pretty classless. After all, it was about the choice of an adult, and not Cheney...



Well, he could sure find something to exploit this, and if it only comes to the most important currency in politics: credibility. After all, he also so far managed to stay away from the low level attacks from McCain's team, instead of attacking him that way, too.

I think in the USA, it could be bad to be too classy.

... and of course, there are no "low level attacks" coming from the Obama campaign -- sheesh.

At any rate, this article:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837862,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

indicates that any investigator on the ground in Alaska would have become aware of Palin's daughter's pregnancy. Without going into the details, I know a little about how such investigations are done. The McCain people would certainly have had someone on the ground in her hometown poking around.

 

[Urwumpe]

Just a quick "meta-note:" A lot of people would find this comment intensely insulting. I know you think it's clever, and I'm sure I'm guilty of the same sort of thing, but this struck me as a good example of why threads get closed. Just to be quite clear, the "sort the garbage" comment is what really cuts. Do you really know enough about the guy to make a comment like that? I'm sure you made this little comment quite quickly. But someone might read this and get very angry, and then post something a little more aggressive. Then more aggression in response, etc.

I don't know -- I don't like to be a scold, so you can take this comment cum grano salis. There are certainly forum members who annoy me -- some a lot. And I am dead certain that I annoy quite a few. Perhaps, I'm writing this to myself ...

Of course assuming that "sorting the garbage" is considered something bad in the USA - here, it would be considered bad or very rebellious , if somebody would not do it.

But the "badger dog club" is actually a small hidden insult. I admit it. :rofl:


-----Posted Added-----

... and of course, there are no "low level attacks" coming from the Obama campaign -- sheesh.

At least, no attacks which required Paris Hilton to come out of the drain again.

Honestly, you know that you did something really classless, when you got Paris Hilton's attention.

 

[dougkeenan]

I thought "sort the garbage" described duties in dotage quite well.

 

[Andy44]

Obama is likely classy enough not to make such a mistake, but who knows.

I start with the assumption that none of these politicians have any class and then wait to see if they prove me wrong. Usually, but not always, the very ambition of wanting to be president alone indicates a lack of class, and the candidate already has a hole to dig out of in my eyes.

Biden is someone I've been familiar with in the local news for many many years, and my mind is already made up on him. In addition to having no class he is a plain old liar, first becoming known to me when he lied about his college degree about 20 or so years ago, and then just rode out the storm, Larry Craig-style. The fact that there remains almost nothing shameful enough to make politicians resign anymore lends creedence to my intial assumption.

Obama and McCain both scare and disgust me; Palin I haven't decided about yet. Being chosen by a mainstream Republicrat candidate is already one strike against her, though.

 

[simonpro]

Obama worries me, there's something I don't like and/or trust about him. Can't put my finger on it but perhaps I just don't like him as a person, doesn't mean he'd be a bad president though. I don't like McCain much either, he strikes me as someone not forceful enough to be a good leader, and America needs a good leader. Overall I'd vote for Obama if I was able, even though I'd be a Republican.
A few years of strong leadership from a Democrat is better than an equal number of years of poor leadership from a Republican.
Anyway, that's my thoughts based on my evil European ways, and to whoever it was who was getting uppity about non-US people talking US politics: Feel free to ignore my post.

 

[Andy44]

uppity

Now that word in a thread which also contains the word "Obama" could be trouble! Although it may not be noticed unless you're familiar with the history of that word in American culture...

 

[synonys]

It's pretty amazing how she's the pick for two seconds and everyone is raking through the personal life of her daughter.