Need help with MS Excel Chart

blixel

Donator
Donator
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
647
Reaction score
0
Points
16
I'm hoping someone here can help me with an Excel question I have. I want to make a chart that recreates this hand drawn report:

27-Aug-15%207-37-00%20PM_zpse4ayf1pu.png~original


I can make Quadrant I without any problem, OR I can make Quadrant II without any problem. But I'm not sure how to make them both together in one chart since the negative x-axis is at a different scale than the positive side.

27-Aug-15%207-38-44%20PM_zpsdg5gwmtn.png~original


27-Aug-15%207-41-40%20PM_zps13kvmzex.png~original
 

boogabooga

Bug Crusher
Joined
Apr 16, 2011
Messages
2,999
Reaction score
1
Points
0
I don't think Excel does that.

Is it just for presentation? I would export the charts of each quadrant as png files and manipulate the image to put them together.
 

blixel

Donator
Donator
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
647
Reaction score
0
Points
16
I don't think Excel does that.

Is it just for presentation? I would export the charts of each quadrant as png files and manipulate the image to put them together.

Thanks for the reply. I thought about doing something along those lines, but I was hoping for a cleaner solution as I think this is going to be a regular problem for the next few months. But ultimately the end result just needs to be an image that gets copy/pasted into a lab report, so if I can figure out how to make borderless charts that can be "sewn" together, then that might be a workable hack for my purposes.
 

Notebook

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
News Reporter
Donator
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
11,816
Reaction score
641
Points
188
Silicon Diode characteriscs?

N.
 

fred18

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
104
Points
78
What about doing two differerent data series and use a secondary scale for one of them? Should do the trick
 

fred18

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
104
Points
78

kamaz

Unicorn hunter
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
4
Points
0

If that is what I think it is, then this graph is simply wrong. Aside from the scale change, the current in the reverse bias region is negative.

diode5.gif
 

C3PO

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
2,605
Reaction score
17
Points
53
What about doing two differerent data series and use a secondary scale for one of them? Should do the trick

AFAIK you can only have a secondary scale for the Y-axis in Excel, not the X-axis.
 

kamaz

Unicorn hunter
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Here is a partal solution. The trick is to use linear graph instead of XY graph, which allows you to have arbitrary, equally spaced values on the X axis, and set both series to the same plotting style (which I didn't do for clarity):

YdnNcXh.png


There are two problems, but both are solvable:

- the first problem is that your data poins are connected by straight lines on the graph. If this is visible, then interpolate data first

- the second problem is that the ticks on the X axis are shifted w.r.t. labels... I'd fix that in Paint by moving the ticks.
 

fred18

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
104
Points
78
AFAIK you can only have a secondary scale for the Y-axis in Excel, not the X-axis.

as long as there is a secondary Y-axis there can be a secondary X-axis. Using Excel 2013, don't know about the previous editions
 

blixel

Donator
Donator
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
647
Reaction score
0
Points
16

Attachments

  • LAB_1_Diode_Characteristics.pdf
    150.9 KB · Views: 8

blixel

Donator
Donator
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
647
Reaction score
0
Points
16
If that is what I think it is, then this graph is simply wrong. Aside from the scale change, the current in the reverse bias region is negative.

Ok, I'm sure you're right. I'll have to redo the lab to see the multimeter readings again, but I think you're right. I don't have a firm grasp on what's going on at this point.
 

kamaz

Unicorn hunter
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Arrrrgggghhhh... Observe that they tell you to reverse the diode, so in the first experiment you are measuring +V_F and in the second experiment you are measuring -V_F. So despite the fact that the diode is now operating in reverse, you are still measuring positive voltage.

That said, they apparently want you to plot -V_F for negative voltages and +V_F for positive voltage, which is criminal, because it gives you a completely wrong picture of what the device characteristic looks like.

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

Jesus Christ. I just saw Figure 2-4.

This is how you can get killed, blow the oscilloscope, and if you are very lucky, you will end up "only" tripping the RCD. Ground your stuff correctly.

 

Notebook

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
News Reporter
Donator
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
11,816
Reaction score
641
Points
188
Thanks for the pdf blixel, interesting reading, I'll have to sit down and have a carefull read to see whats going on.

Regarding Q4, you can use an ohms range on an analogue multimeter to do a quick diode test. It will give a low reistance when forward biased, and high resistance when reverse biased. Note the red lead will usually have the negative battery terminal of the ohmmeter circuit, and the black lead the positive battery terminal.
I can't remember why, and my practical use is ten years out of date. You can check this with a second multimeter, and measure the voltage and polarity of the test leads when on the ohms ranges.
Model I used a lot was an AVO 9, had two batteries for the ohms ranges I think.

Of course modern stuff is all digital and lots of them have diode and other semiconductor testers built in, very clever. Not as much fun though

Edit: forgot to mention, doing a "diode test" on an analogue multimeter ohms range, risks destroying the diode when forward biased. On low ohms range a large current is needed to measure the resistance, and a diode is not a resistor, so can pass a lot of current...for a short time. A range of 10KOhms or more will give you a go/nogo for a quick diode check.
Just goes to show the risks of using test equipment in a way it wasn't designed for.

N.
 
Last edited:

blixel

Donator
Donator
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
647
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Arrrrgggghhhh... Observe that they tell you to reverse the diode, so in the first experiment you are measuring +V_F and in the second experiment you are measuring -V_F. So despite the fact that the diode is now operating in reverse, you are still measuring positive voltage.

That said, they apparently want you to plot -V_F for negative voltages and +V_F for positive voltage, which is criminal, because it gives you a completely wrong picture of what the device characteristic looks like.

I'm getting a little turned around here. With regards to the lab, are you saying that my current measurements for steps 6 and 7 are backwards? (i.e. I should be showing negative current on the left side?)
 

kamaz

Unicorn hunter
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
4
Points
0
I'm getting a little turned around here. With regards to the lab, are you saying that my current measurements for steps 6 and 7 are backwards? (i.e. I should be showing negative current on the left side?)

Yes, you should be, and your graph should look like the one I posted in #9. (Minus the leftmost steep part, because you have never entered that region). That said, the shape of the answer box strongly hints that the author of the instruction expects the drawing like the one you've done in #1. Problem is, such answer is objectively wrong. Here's why.

Diodes are normally measured in a test setup which looks like that:

KOGdwr2.png


(from http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/IVChrzDIodes2450_AN1.PDF -- actually, read the whole thing)

(1) Per convention, the HIgh potential is usually higher up on the image and the LOw potential is lower. Let's say that the Force_LO connector is held at 0V w.r.t. ground, and the Force_HI connectors is at potential V_F>0 w.r.t. to the ground. The diode is now polarized forward (anode is at higher potential).The current is flowing from higher potential to lower potential, i.e. out of the Force_HI terminal, downward through the diode, and into the Force_LO terminal. Observe the diode symbol is simply an arrow which shows you which direction the device will treat as forward! The whole idea behind the diode is that it will conduct current which enters through anode and exits through cathode, but not vice versa!

(2) To measure reverse current, we have to put the anode and lower potential than the cathode. If you can afford a proper characterization device (like the one in the PDF) then you simply tell it to put the Force_HI terminal at some voltage -V_R<0, while keeping Force_LO (and thus Sense_LO) at ground. Since the current in the circuit obeys the laws of physics, it will again flow from higher potential to lower potential, i.e out of the Force_LO terminal, upwards through the diode and into the Force_HI terminal. However, since the current is now flowing into the Force_HI terminal, and backward through the diode, then this current is negative (and the meter will indeed show negative current). Further, as the diode itself is concerned, the current is now flowing into cathode. So from the diode's POV, it is being forced to conduct reverse (i.e. negative) current.

(3) If you cannot afford proper equipment, observe that the same effect (i.e. forcing the diode to conduct the current backwards) can be achieved by keeping the Force_HI terminal at positive voltage +V_R>0 and instead connecting the diode backwards (i.e. so that its arrow points upwards). Since the diode is now reversed, its anode is now at lower potential. Remember, the diode "wants" to conduct current in the direction of its arrow symbol, i.e. upwards; alas, we have put it in the circuit which forces downward current flow, into cathode, so as far as the diode is concerned -- it is again operating in the reverse region, so the current is backwards, i.e. negative.

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

Note the red lead will usually have the negative battery terminal of the ohmmeter circuit, and the black lead the positive battery terminal.

That's backwards. The standard convention is:

red - positive w.r.t. COM/GND
black - COMmon / GrouND
blue - negative w.r.t. COM/GND
 

Notebook

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
News Reporter
Donator
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
11,816
Reaction score
641
Points
188
Originally Posted by Notebook View Post

Note the red lead will usually have the negative battery terminal of the ohmmeter circuit, and the black lead the positive battery terminal.
That's backwards. The standard convention is:

red - positive w.r.t. COM/GND
black - COMmon / GrouND
blue - negative w.r.t. COM/GND

I agree completely with that, however, analogue multimeters I used to use would have a positive voltage on the Black lead and a negative voltage on the red lead when it was operating in the Ohms range. Polarity dosen;t matter when you are measuring a resistor, but if you are using an analogue multimeter as a diode checker it does.

N.
 

kamaz

Unicorn hunter
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
4
Points
0
That said, the shape of the answer box strongly hints that the author of the instruction expects the drawing like the one you've done in #1.

Or maybe not. As you have never entered the reverse breakdown region, you don't need much space down...
 
Top