Science Rapid Interstellar spaceflight, exploration and,colonization thread

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
So far i have my design considerations done but my main problem is how much energy would be needed to accelerate the craft to a certain speed for a certain amount of time based on mass... And how many g's will the craft take on while accelerating...
If you have anything similar that would be pretty good...
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Any similar spacecraft?

I must say that I have several ideas for spacecraft, but none are very developed either in the mathamatical or the addon sense...
 

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
Any similar spacecraft?

I must say that I have several ideas for spacecraft, but none are very developed either in the mathamatical or the addon sense...

Uh would you mind rephrasing that please...

But if you are asking for a similar space craft i would be sorry to say that mine is ~90% original...
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Rephrasing that? How must I rephrase that? I thought what I said was pretty simple... :uhh:

I have several concepts for space-flight technology on my mind, but they are all extremely vague and they probably wouldn't be very useful to you.

Is that a bit better?
 

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
Rephrasing that? How must I rephrase that? I thought what I said was pretty simple... :uhh:

I have several concepts for space-flight technology on my mind, but they are all extremely vague and they probably wouldn't be very useful to you.

Is that a bit better?

Thanks...

What concepts are they now that you mentioned them?
 

Eagle1Division

New member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
115
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Well we had dinosaurs that grew pretty tall... With less gravity their tallest creatures could still be tall... And im pretty sure a few rifle bullets wont even get close to killing a creature the size of Amphicoelias...

Longest_dinosaurs1.png

Been busy a bit, finally got back to the thread and I wanted to pull this back out real quick...
I think movies massively overplay big creatures. IRL, I think an AP 7mm round could easily kill something 2x the size of Amphicoelias if you place the round somewhere vital, purely because of the penetrative power that bullets have.
And I think a .50 cal would be better than using a machinegun. And I guarantee that nothing short of a Groveback can survive a well-placed .50 cal. They were banned on use against infantry due to... Rather powerful effects. If they are used on infantry, IIRC you only need to get the round within 3 yards of someone to kill them with it. A direct hit? Amphicoelias won't survive that in the leg (you'd see 2 bones). Nevermind anywhere vital. So in terms of defending against dangerous wildlife,
Smaller than a Yak -> 5.56 mm
Yak or larger, smaller than a Dinosaur -> 7mm
Anything large-Dinosaur-sized or larger -> .50 Cal
Anything of absolute monstrous alien proportions (approaching Groveback size) -> HE .50 Cal

All of which being semi-auto. Hunters may use larger rounds, but this is exercising weight restrictions and working with the absolute minimum. Larger rounds require much larger supply stores and logistics to work with. That's why the M16 uses 5.56 instead of 7mm, and that's why they designed the MP-5 to use pistol rounds. This is on Earth, now imagine if you had severe restrictions on mass and infrastructure....
Doubtless they'd bring shell catchers and re-load used shells instead of bringing every round. Just a minor descriptive detail.

(And no, for the record, I don't hunt...)

---------- Post added at 02:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 AM ----------

Uh would you mind rephrasing that please...

But if you are asking for a similar space craft i would be sorry to say that mine is ~90% original...

Originality is good in the humanities...
But when it comes to applied science, it's usually a good idea to not venture too far off into unknown territory, not unless you're on a team of engineers actually leading the way.

at least 70% of hypothesis and original designs are either wrong or don't work best. The best thing to do is do extensive research and become familiar with proposed concepts, and real vehicles before trying anything really new.
Satrun V + Command + Service + Lunar Modules, Space Shuttle, ISS, Soyuz, X-33, ICAN-II, HOPE, Project Daedalus and Longshot, Bussard Ramjet, Photon Sail, etc. etc. You're probably already familiar with many of these, though.

Not to say you shouldn't, it's just if you're really trying to make a realistic, working design, then you should read up first, otherwise it's probably not going to be a realistic, working design...
 

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
Uh interstellar travel is unknown territory... I may actually get lost just thinking about it...
I was walking my dog and i couldn't find the map to perfect interstellar travel so i wandered for days until i was arrested by the police....

But seriously we know nothing so a little imagination isn't going to harm it in any way
 

Eagle1Division

New member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
115
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Uh interstellar travel is unknown territory... I may actually get lost just thinking about it...
I was walking my dog and i couldn't find the map to perfect interstellar travel so i wandered for days until i was arrested by the police....

But seriously we know nothing so a little imagination isn't going to harm it in any way

It's not totally unknown territory. We know how to build spaceships, we know how to move through space with spaceships. We know how to build manned spaceships, we know how to build interplanetary spaceships, and by extension we know, more or less, how to build manned interplanetary spaceships.

And while I agree we know nothing, I mean that in a totally different way...
We do know a lot about building spaceships, and there's lots of engineering teams who've designed interstellar spaceships. By extension, we have the general know-how to design interstellar manned spaceships.
Only generally, though, once you go interstellar you start running into things like galactic radiation and enormous flight times that nobody's really solved yet.

And anyways, I'm just saying that if you want a realistic design, then you'll have to know what realistic is. We may not have built an ISV before, but we do know what will work and what won't, i.e. that a giant slingshot won't work and that a Photon Sail can. Or for a better example, that using thermocouples to turn your heat into electricity won't work and that a Fusion Engine can.
 

jedidia

shoemaker without legs
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
10,885
Reaction score
2,139
Points
203
Location
between the planets
It's not totally unknown territory. We know how to build spaceships, we know how to move through space with spaceships. We know how to build manned spaceships, we know how to build interplanetary spaceships, and by extension we know, more or less, how to build manned interplanetary spaceships.

...And can therefore conclude that manned interstelar travel is a total pipe dream unless we find a way to do it utterly different ;)

So far i have my design considerations done but my main problem is how much energy would be needed to accelerate the craft to a certain speed for a certain amount of time based on mass...

All equations needed are on the site I posted before. You should at least read through the first few chapters, gives you a good feeling of what you're actually doing and where the problems lie.
 
Last edited:

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
I just performed the calculations for the rocket and it came out to be so high that for the first time in my life i actually felt hopeless...
 

Eagle1Division

New member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
115
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I just performed the calculations for the rocket and it came out to be so high that for the first time in my life i actually felt hopeless...

The Mass Ratio?

Reality is a cruel mistress. Read up and check out the Engine lists table on Project Rho/Atomic Rocket.

Also, something that I particularly like is FTL by rotating the spatial plane of travel... It's something I've never heard of except in this actual paper, and it's not the same as Hyperspace, though the name is similar.
Check it out.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Larger rounds require much larger supply stores and logistics to work with. That's why the M16 uses 5.56 instead of 7mm, and that's why they designed the MP-5 to use pistol rounds. This is on Earth, now imagine if you had severe restrictions on mass and infrastructure....
Doubtless they'd bring shell catchers and re-load used shells instead of bringing every round. Just a minor descriptive detail.

Conversely, you'll end up needing larger supplies of lower-calibre rounds, if they are a good deal less effective.

The 7.62 mm NATO round would probably easily deal with any forseeable dangerous organisms. A 12.7mm would make short work of an organism the size of Amphicoelias, though it's possible that multiple 7.62mm rounds could take down such a large animal over a more prolonged period.

Generally the bigger an animal gets, the lighter it'll have to be (by pneumatising its bones for example, as with large dinosaurs) to support itself. Of course, on a planet with lower gravity, organisms can be larger, but they could generally be more gracile as well.

12.7mm would probably be the largest calibre you'd realistically need to use on a wilderness planet. A 12.7mm explosive round with fusing, etc, would however likely be able to have only a small explosive payload. I have, however, seen some interesting concepts for 12.7mm rounds with small amounts of explosive payload.

Producing ammo would be difficult though. It's a toss up between bringing no rounds or guns but the means to produce them on-site, or bring some weapons and repurpose other machinery if necessary, and also a toss up between bringing/making semi-auto weapons in a light and heavy calibre, or bringing a light calibre only, but also having small quantities/the ability to produce small quantities of fully automatic weapons, that have you risk shooting away all your ammunition.

Guns themselves should be easy enough to produce, given a simplified enough design (AK was meant to be built in any machine shop, if you're seriously planning on colonising a wilderness planet, you better have a pretty impressive machine shop), but ammunition would be more difficult. You're talking propellants, primers, forming projectiles... drawing cases... all of which needs pretty intrinsic infrastructure.

...And can therefore conclude that manned interstelar travel is a total pipe dream unless we find a way to do it utterly different

Not "utterly different". A wright flyer and an SR-71 work on vaguely similar principles and have a lot of vague similarities. It's just that the wright flyer doesn't contain any of the highly advanced technology (advanced jet propulsion, titanium alloys, hydraulics, instrumentation) that the SR-71 has.

An interstellar spacecraft and an interplanetary (we've only really done LEO up to now, it's vaguely similar enough to interplanetary space to give us a lot of good experience) are vaguely similar in difference, to the Wright Flyer/SR-71. Those two examples are both aircraft, one is just more advanced than the other. These two examples are both spacecraft, and the same things apply (though obviously at different scales here).

The biggest problem is probably propulsion, because we need really high exhaust energies and energy densities and stuff like that for interstellar spaceflight to be viable. The other is probably all the stuff related to the crew and actually keeping the ship running. That's a whole other story. :dry:

I just performed the calculations for the rocket and it came out to be so high that for the first time in my life i actually felt hopeless...

Could you explain in a coherent manner what calculations you did and how badly they came out? What parameters did you use?
 

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
Well i originally found the volume of the craft(without cargo) and multiplied it by the density of the alloy which is aluminum-litium type thingy... Which gave me a mass of: 4.26127×10^7 kg... I then took the equation that i found E = 1/2mv^2 and plugged in the numbers which gave me 1.726e23J i then used a website that gave me the number of TJ a kilo of fusion fuel could give me... I multiplied the volume of one tank and the amount of joules per kilo of fusom... Which gave me the number joules per fusom filled tank... Then i divided the number of joules needed by tank joules... Which gave me the enormous number of 3132...
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Ok... I can't make sense of anything you just said, but I don't think you're doing it exactly the right way. :uhh:
 

orbitingpluto

Orbiteer
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
618
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Little nitpick here. Sorry If I'm disrupting.

Guns themselves should be easy enough to produce, given a simplified enough design (AK was meant to be built in any machine shop,

It seems not. From Wikipedia:

With the evolution of modern CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machinery, the M16 can now be manufactured in micro plants. In the U.S., a number of manufacturers make modern M16 variants and many are indeed micro plant manufacturers. This is possible because of the high degree of automation that can be applied to the machining of the M16 receiver and upper, which are made out of aluminum.
The M16 appeared much later than the AK-47 and thus provided a platform that offered much more development potential than the AK series. Unlike the AK-47, the M16 continues to benefit from every advance in the CNC field, which allows more and more small manufacturers to make M16s and AR-15s (AR-15 is now used as the designation for civilian versions, limited to semi-automatic fire only). While the M16 is made using aluminum and plastics, it can also be made entirely out of machined steel and wood, at the expense of adding some weight. Where the AK-47 has so far relied on huge Soviet-style, state-run factories (albeit with considerable illicit small-scale production existing), the M16 is considered ideal for market economy production, spread among many manufacturers around the country; this also ensures it would be nearly impossible to disrupt U.S. M16 production in the case of a major conflict. However, should CNC technology be applied to AK-47 derivatives on a large enough scale, this advantage might be negated.

At any rate, even if it would be easier to make M16s in-situ, I would still like a heavier round to fight prospective dinosaur-thingies with. My two cents.
 

Eagle1Division

New member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
115
Reaction score
0
Points
0
[...]
At any rate, even if it would be easier to make M16s in-situ, I would still like a heavier round to fight prospective dinosaur-thingies with. My two cents.

True, if you don't hit anywhere vital. But the 5.56 has more penetrative power (smaller round and higher velocity means more pressure on the tip), which means the possibility of hitting really vital stuff inside the beast are much higher. And anyways, if it's the head of any animal, then all you need is some penetration and an accurate round, hence the 5.56.


Well i originally found the volume of the craft(without cargo) and multiplied it by the density of the alloy which is aluminum-litium type thingy... Which gave me a mass of: 4.26127×10^7 kg... I then took the equation that i found E = 1/2mv^2 and plugged in the numbers which gave me 1.726e23J i then used a website that gave me the number of TJ a kilo of fusion fuel could give me... I multiplied the volume of one tank and the amount of joules per kilo of fusom... Which gave me the number joules per fusom filled tank... Then i divided the number of joules needed by tank joules... Which gave me the enormous number of 3132...

Wait... Did you do this from project Rho? That was a little confusing... (and by that I mean a lot, since tone isn't apparent in text.)
Perhaps the most important page/article to read on is this page and the "Delta-Vee" section. It's a much, much easier way to work out requirements.
Make sure to remember mass ratio isn't just
Mpt/Me,
it's
(Mpt/Me) + 1
Mpt = Mass of Propellant
Me = Mass of empty vehicle

(Mass ratio is never smaller than 1. If you multiply the mass of the empty vehicle by the mass ratio, you get the mass of the full vehicle.)

Also, wiki the Lorentz Factor and grab that equation:
L = c / Sqrt(c^2 - v^2)
The Reciprocal of the Lorentz Factor, 1/L, will be very useful.
Essentially, if you're carrying enough Delta-Vee to go 3c, then you won't go 3c because conventional FTL travel is impossible. However, if you multiply the Lorentz factor by your speed after using the 3c of Delta-Vee, it will actually come out as 3c.

It's kinda confusing, let me just show you an example...
Let's say you want to cruise at .999c. The table on the [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_Factor]wiki page[/ame] says the Lorentz factor at .999c is 22.366. So you'll need a Delta-Vee of
Dv = 22.366 * 0.999c * 2
22.366 is your Lorentz Factor at that velocity.
0.999c is your actual velocity.
2 is because you want enough Delta-Vee to stop when you get there!
c = 299,792,458
So the solution is 13,396,905,915 m/s

There's probably no design that can do that, this is just an example of how to work your Delta-Vee when Relativity becomes significant.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
At any rate, even if it would be easier to make M16s in-situ, I would still like a heavier round to fight prospective dinosaur-thingies with. My two cents.

Well, you wouldn't be taking an M16, or an AK-47, or an FN FAL. You'd be taking some sort of future-gun that combines the traits of all three; the rugged design ethic and piston-driven design of the AK, the large calibre of the FAL, and techniques to achieve easier manufacturing (arguably it would probably be more similar to recent (last 10 years) rifles than the M16.

Considering that making aluminium/steel from the start would be pretty difficult, any part that doesn't need to be seriously high strength, or have good wear resistance, could probably be made of high-strength polymer. The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_SCAR"]FN SCAR[/ame] has a plastic reciever with steel guide-rails, for example. Such a weapon would probably be a lot like a simplified and slightly tweaked SCAR.

True, if you don't hit anywhere vital. But the 5.56 has more penetrative power (smaller round and higher velocity means more pressure on the tip), which means the possibility of hitting really vital stuff inside the beast are much higher. And anyways, if it's the head of any animal, then all you need is some penetration and an accurate round, hence the 5.56.

I'd ditch the 5.56 and go straight to 7.62mm. It is a far more powerful round; it has roughly twice the kinetic energy of the 5.56mm.

We don't know the anatomy of the organisms that could live there; they needn't have such vital organs in a "head", they could for example have a sensory stalk and keep their brain or neural ganglion or whatever deeper within their bodies, which greater penetration would help with.

Generally things are easier if you don't have to rely on headshots.

There's probably no design that can do that, this is just an example of how to work your Delta-Vee when Relativity becomes significant.

A bussard ramjet might be able to do that. But the bussard ramjet isn't really a "design", more than it is a vague propulsion concept, that has a lot of unsolved issues.

A magnetic parachute (effectively, the ramscoop bit of the bussard ramjet) might be useful for deceleration, and I've read that calculations show that it's more effective the faster you go. But it would also probably only give low deceleration, which could be problematic.

High acceleration in short-term interstellar spaceflight now borders on being required, at least for journeys to the nearest stars (Alpha Centuri, etc). There's a lot of space to accelerate and decelerate, but you're also planning on going extremely fast. The longer it takes you to accelerate, the longer your travel time will be.

To get to a star 20 light-years away with a brachistochrone, with velocity peaking at 0.999 c, you'd have to accelerate constantly at over 2G. And it would take 3.5 years (ship time).

I don't know who would be willing to tolerate 2G for three years. Or even three months...
 

vorthon

New member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I'm hoping the Alcubierre Drive concept turns out to be viable, personally. Why move a ship when you can move space?

Also, alternative biochemistries (Orion's Arm has a good list.). It'd be interesting to see how colonists would adapt to those.
 

fsci123

Future Dubstar and Rocketkid
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
?
I'm hoping the Alcubierre Drive concept turns out to be viable, personally. Why move a ship when you can move space?

Also, alternative biochemistries (Orion's Arm has a good list.). It'd be interesting to see how colonists would adapt to those.


I have a feeling that it is mostly fiction... No fiction we need facts... THis is a thread that allows mad-scientist and corrupt-businessman to think about colonizing other worlds...:facts::facts:
 
Top