Discussion The next 100 years..

Victor_D

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It's a conspiracy! :shifty:

Lords of Kobol, give me strength...

Let me quote Zubrin, OK?

Yet modern-day launch costs make no sense. (...) [L]et's assume that rockets provide the only viable launch technology. Current-day rockets , such as the kerosene/oxygen fuelled Atlas, can deliver about 1 percent of their takeoff mass to orbit--most (about 90 percent) of the remaining pass is propellant.

The cost of of a kerosene/oxygen propellant mixture (at 3:1 oxygen/kerosene mixture ratio) is about $0.20/kg. Since the propellant consumed during launch has 90 times the mass of the payload delivered, the propellant cost of sending a mass to orbit is about $18/kg. Assuming a total system operating cost of six times the propellant cost (about double the total cost/fuel ratio of airlines), the resulting price of a rocket ride to orbit would be in the neighbourhood of $100/kg, or $10,000 for a 100-kg passenger. There is no fundamental reason why space-launch prices in this range cannot be achieved.

Thus, we see that the reason it costs so much today to do anything in space has little to do with the laws of physics and engineering.

Then he goes on describing how the lack of competition among the large US aerospace companies and government restrictions keep the prices artificially high.

I didn't check his numbers, but I assume he knows what he's talking about, he worked for one of those large aerospace companies after all. Anyway, he made a lot of assumptions. So, let's say he was wrong by an order of magnitude - then the price should be $1000/kg, still about 5-10 times lower than it is today.



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And we're talking about space launch technology that is 60 years old now, it's not as if we were developing new engines all the time and needed to spread the costs. Yet we've moved nowhere. No wait, I take it back. If you take a good look at the prices, you can see that the last time prices fell was when the Eastern launchers began competing with the Western ones for commercial launches. Imagine what would happen if the market was deregulated - if the US government allowed US companies to launch all their satellites on Russian or Chinese launchers and the other governments did the same, and if even the defence industry was allowed to launch their spy sats on the cheapest available launchers. Maybe then we'd have prices in the neighbourhood of $1000/kg instead of $10,000/kg. In a situation where the U.S. Air Force is willing to pay $20,000/kg or more just to have their payloads launched by a U.S. company, there's little wonder the prices are stubbornly refusing to go down.

So, anybody can scoff and mock others with funny smileys and derisive comments screaming bloody conspiracy. Personally, I don't see any reason to believe that the current-day launch prices are the best the market can provide. There are multiple factors which clearly distort the market and contribute to the discrepancy, and pointing them out is perfectly legitimate. If you're too lazy to actually think about the problem, then you better keep quiet.
 
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C3PO

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I hate to break it to you guys, but fuel cost isn't a major part of the funds needed for launching space craft. Not even manufacturing counts as a major part. Today most of the money is spent on testing and certification, and that's the reason why Soyuz is much cheaper then anything NASA has come up with.

PS: Just kidding. I don't hate to break it to you. :lol:
 

T.Neo

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Let's see the one biggest flaw in Zubrin's argument here:

Assuming a total system operating cost of six times the propellant cost (about double the total cost/fuel ratio of airlines), the resulting price of a rocket ride to orbit would be in the neighbourhood of $100/kg

(emphasis mine)

It is clear to anyone that has actually considered the design, engineering, and operation of a launch vehicle in the real world (i.e. not the idealised space-enthusiasm world), that the cost/fuel cost ratio of launch vehicles is far, far higher than this.

If we want to assume the total cost/fuel cost ratio double that of an airliner, we have to assume that the technological difficulty of a launch vehicle is twice that of an airliner. But it isn't. It is far more than an airliner. This is the crucial fact that people comparing launch vehicles to airliners even in the slightest degree seem to either ignore, or not know about at all.

The funny thing about this argument is that I actually agree with you in the sense that I think that modern launch costs probably aren't the best that you could get with modern technological proficiency, all I disagree with you on is the matter of scale. Maybe for example if everything was done correctly, from a business standpoint and a technical standpoint, you could get launch costs of $2000-$1000/kg.

But there is no reason to assume that over 95% of the cost of say, Proton, is suddenly magic-ed out of thin air by evil conspiracy market controlling businessmen. That is not a legitimate argument, that is just silly.
 

RGClark

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But there is no reason to assume that over 95% of the cost of say, Proton, is suddenly magic-ed out of thin air by evil conspiracy market controlling businessmen. That is not a legitimate argument, that is just silly.

I don't know if Victor is arguing that. I know that I am not. The government procurement process also has a big part of it. For instance in the search for a heavy lift program some senators and congressman demanded of NASA that it be composed of components involved in the shuttle program. This insured jobs in their states or districts would be preserved. Not coincidentally it also insured some leading aerospace companies would preserve their contracts.
However, the main reason as I have been arguing is that they are doing it wrong. The technology exists now and has for decades to produce reusable SSTO's. This can reduce the cost to orbit to the range of a few hundred dollars per kilo.


Bob Clark
 

T.Neo

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No, it cannot. What you lose in the complexity of multiple components you gain in the complexity of a single component. When you add reusability infrastructure you increase the complexity and cost of the whole system. And then you still have to refurbish everything.

I am not arguing against the government procurement process raising costs, I am arguing against most of the cost of modern launch systems being unecessary and placed there due to 'evil businessmen' or 'evil politicians'. That is some kind of wishful conspiracy.

You haven't even provided any data for your "hundreds of dollars per kilo" assertion other than your kerosene-fueled X-33, and I am highly skeptical of this due to:

- The feasibility of the X-33 outright.

- The feasibility of the X-33 as stated.

- The feasibility of converting the X-33 in the manner you suggest.

- The practicality of spaceplanes using external cargo pods.

In addition, increasing the payload of a particular system is not a cure-all; if I come onto the market with a launcher that can launch 200 tons, nobody is going to want to pay for 180 tons of lift capability they're not using (because nobody is launching 200 ton payloads). That said, you can create a new system that is scaled down to carry more marketable payloads, but the previous arguments still stand.
 

Victor_D

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It is clear to anyone that has actually considered the design, engineering, and operation of a launch vehicle in the real world (i.e. not the idealised space-enthusiasm world), that the cost/fuel cost ratio of launch vehicles is far, far higher than this.

If we want to assume the total cost/fuel cost ratio double that of an airliner, we have to assume that the technological difficulty of a launch vehicle is twice that of an airliner. But it isn't. It is far more than an airliner. This is the crucial fact that people comparing launch vehicles to airliners even in the slightest degree seem to either ignore, or not know about at all.

This argument could have held some water 50 years ago. It doesn't now. We've been launching things to space for many decades, building big dumb rockets isn't anything new.

In any case, as I said - even if Zubrin's estimate was an order of magnitude off, it would still result in a price of about $1000/kg. Interestingly, that's the price Musk plans to achieve once his big dumb rockets start flying in sufficient numbers.

If we want to assume the total cost/fuel cost ratio double that of an airliner, we have to assume that the technological difficulty of a launch vehicle is twice that of an airliner. But it isn't. It is far more than an airliner. This is the crucial fact that people comparing launch vehicles to airliners even in the slightest degree seem to either ignore, or not know about at all.

The funny thing about this argument is that I actually agree with you in the sense that I think that modern launch costs probably aren't the best that you could get with modern technological proficiency, all I disagree with you on is the matter of scale. Maybe for example if everything was done correctly, from a business standpoint and a technical standpoint, you could get launch costs of $2000-$1000/kg.

Then I don't see why we're arguing - $1000/kg is what I consider a realistic price in a reasonably de-regulated space launch market, at least until something better than big dumb rockets is available. Anything below that would require heavier launch vehicles with very high flight rates resulting in large economies of scale.

But there is no reason to assume that over 95% of the cost of say, Proton, is suddenly magic-ed out of thin air by evil conspiracy market controlling businessmen. That is not a legitimate argument, that is just silly.

That's a strawman. My argument is simply that there is no justification for today's prices per kilogram to LEO. I contend that the prices are high not because of any physical or engineering limits, but because the environment in which the launch companies operate discourages cost reduction - it actually motivates these companies to make their launch vehicles costlier because that way they can get more money from government contracts.

There is nothing about that that warrants accusations of spreading conspiracy theories - it's simple self-interest.
 

T.Neo

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I like the way you think. You vehemently defend super-low prices and SSTOs for several posts, then you immediately shift over to low prices and Big Dumb Boosters.

Look, I was also a kind of... Big Dumb Booster proponent, person... thing. But again, you have limits. You can't make your booster too dumb, or the thing will blow up a good portion of the time* and that will be a bad thing. You do, just like with the maintainance and refurbishment of an SSTO, put effort and cost into inspections and quality. The way you crack down on failure rates- at least the way failure rates have been cracked down on historically, is by having tight tolerances and intensive quality control. That of course costs money.

The SpaceX vehicles are not BDBs. They are also made of advanced materials, they use advanced construction techniques, and presumably quite a bit of money and effort is put into their inspection and quality. Maybe they have some aspects which are BDB-like, but there is no reason to believe that they will suddenly super-revolutionise spaceflight (sounds a lot like the argument against Skylon).

Maybe you can reduce launch costs, if you go for pressure fed stuff, simple engines, perhaps if you make use of solids... but you will always have to have high quality on the vehicle, more intensively in some places than others, but it'll still be there, and you'll still have to fork up a good amount of money to prevent your launcher from regularly blowing up.

And you won't help with large payloads, because while larger vehicles might have lower cost/kg, the first problem is that nobody wants to (forseeably) launch huge payloads, and the second problem is that the low flight rates are undesirable in terms of economies of scale.

Ah, Sea Dragon was a lovely idea. No more pads or crawlers of VABs... and then you realise that the thing has to be put together in a lagoon, towed out to sea and launched in the waves... I went through a phase when I was fascinated with Sea Dragon, and I couldn't avoid thinking about these problems even then.

In the end the ideal "BDB" wouldn't be very big, and it probably wouldn't be very dumb, either. It would be a complex attempt to reduce simplicity. It is very easy to make something complex, but very difficult to make something simple and elegant.

And even then, you might not achieve magic-low costs.

*This was the concept behind the Aquarius launch vehicle, sea-launched, pressure-fed SSTO... one in three launches was predicted to fail, but this was seen as acceptable. Of course, payloads were bulk goods such as food, clothing, or propellant, so the loss of a payload was not deemed to be a severe problem.

This argument could have held some water 50 years ago. It doesn't now. We've been launching things to space for many decades, building big dumb rockets isn't anything new.

The fact that we've been launching stuff into space for 50 years doesn't stop the physical challenge of doing so from existing.

In any case, as I said - even if Zubrin's estimate was an order of magnitude off, it would still result in a price of about $1000/kg. Interestingly, that's the price Musk plans to achieve once his big dumb rockets start flying in sufficient numbers.

And a four-fold to five-fold cost reduction is far more plausible than a ten-fold one.

That's a strawman. My argument is simply that there is no justification for today's prices per kilogram to LEO. I contend that the prices are high not because of any physical or engineering limits, but because the environment in which the launch companies operate discourages cost reduction - it actually motivates these companies to make their launch vehicles costlier because that way they can get more money from government contracts.

Of course there is justification for (a good portion of) the costs of today's launch vehicles! It is very technologically difficult to launch stuff into orbit.

Now, I agree with you that the prices are higher than they would otherwise be due to the launch environment. What I don't agree with is the idea that most of these costs are entirely purposeless and engineered for profit, without any regard to the technical difficulty of spaceflight.

Maybe for example if you change your technological stance, you could get things cheaper... but there are limits, and this of course is also a new avenue that cannot be pursued instantly and cheaply via magic.

There is nothing about that that warrants accusations of spreading conspiracy theories - it's simple self-interest.

And I can say it is in the self interest of the US government to hide the truth about aliens from the public... :uhh:
 
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fsci123

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Well i was thinking that because we make spacecraft like steel cans launch cost are expensive... What if we were to start making spacecraft out of plastic like composites and mass produce in a scale grater than soyuz...
 

Urwumpe

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Composites cost MUCH more than metal structures. Especially if you want to use composites for places, that have high dynamic loads (strong vibrations). Currently you just use them for some interstage structures, because that is what composite structures can do really good.

Composites are better for saving weight and reduce the number of parts a lot compared to metal structures, but they are by far not cheaper. If you use the right composites at the right places, you can increase the costs of one part, but then save costs elsewhere. But that isn't a simple equation, that requires solid engineering, that many "The launch costs are too damn high" talkers here have never even considered doing.

Also, it is very stupid to proclaim that most launch costs today are done for a profit, when even for a commercial launch provider like Arianespace, that has a market dominating position, the tax payer has to provide money to keep the show running.

PS: I consider $1/kg a very fair price for a launch service, when I am customer. But that doesn't mean it is a realistic price.
 
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RGClark

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Well i was thinking that because we make spacecraft like steel cans launch cost are expensive... What if we were to start making spacecraft out of plastic like composites and mass produce in a scale grater than soyuz...

Then you would reduce the price to orbit to the $100/kilo range.


Bob Clark
 

C3PO

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Then you would reduce the price to orbit to the $100/kilo range.

So you want to reduce costs by using materials that are more expensive? :rolleyes:
 

T.Neo

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A space elevator?

You mean the concept that we don't know how to build, requires materials we don't have, corrodes in the atmosphere, poses a problem for the flightpaths of air and space vehicles, is at huge risk from MMOD damage, exposes passengers and cargo to the full brunt of the Van Allen belts, delivers to only a single orbit, and takes several days to reach orbit?

I think this is the best solution to the problem of reducing launch costs.
 

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Do have the materials carbon nanotubes.
 

Urwumpe

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Do have the materials carbon nanotubes.

Isn't enough material strength yet, also we still can't produce single nanotubes of the required length, also there are some annoying quantum physics effects of them, which make them react pretty harshly to UV radiation.
 

T.Neo

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also there are some annoying quantum physics effects of them, which make them react pretty harshly to UV radiation.

Don't those effects only occur in an environment with free oxygen?
 

fsci123

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So you want to reduce costs by using materials that are more expensive? :rolleyes:

Well I didn't meen composites like ceramics and metal mixes I meant plastics... Why don't we make modules out of hard plastics...
 

C3PO

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Well I didn't meen composites like ceramics and metal mixes I meant plastics... Why don't we make modules out of hard plastics...

Do you know how hard plastics react to cryogenic temperatures?
 

T.Neo

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You do not necessarily have to use cryogenic propellants in spaceflight, but they do offer the greatest performance.

Then again you could experience low temperatures in orbit... I suppose you could have heaters or something, but they consume electricity.

Is glass fibre not good enough? Is it too dense? Too weak? Too floppy? Considering the number of fiberglass objects made today, wouldn't wrapping glass fibre composite around a mandrell be cheaper than forming and welding together a series of metal panels?
 
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