News Urban guerilla in Paris, France

[N_Molson]

The Paris-Saint-Germain football club won the national football cup yesterday, and this afternoon and evening happenings where scheduled in various points of the capital.

However, fanatic supporters quickly turned the fest into a complete mess. Anti-riot police charged in, the Trocadero Plaza (Eiffel tower) and the Place de l'Etoile have been saturated with tear gas grenades.

The police (well, technically anti-riot squads belong to the army) is currently reconquering the center of Paris street by street. It seems that a remnant of 100-200 persons are playing to continue the mess as long as possible.

This is an organizational disaster. Qatar investors that own the football club will probably have difficulties to understand, as everything went well within the stadium (they had put a lot of money in security). Police is arguing that the Trocadero Plaza was a very bad choice for the celebration, because there are public works.

Well, in short that's a complete mess. :facepalm:

Latest update : the Trocadero (Eiffel tower) has been reconquered by police/army forces. What a feat of arms ! :facepalm:

---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 PM ----------

There are already rumors that the Qatari literally "rented" Paris this evening, despite of the warnings adressed by police officials.

No too serious wounds reported for now, things are calming down as the governement probably thought it was enough and engaged massive police/army forces, but stores displays have been broken and raided, urban infrastructures degraded, as usual in those situations...

Could really have been worse, as the players of the football team were supposed to show themselves on a boat on the Seine river. A panic on the docks would have been terrible, people could have fell in water, and drowns would have been inevitable. Really, everyone has been lucky. :facepalm:

---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------

The Préfecture de Police just held a press conference. The outcome for the evening is :

- 30 wounded (including 3 police officers).
- 27 people arrested.

Of course there are a lot of video cameras in Paris and a lot people are probably going to be properly identified (anyways, most of them are already known from the police services, and they are quite well infiltrated by intelligence services).

The "Préfet de Police" of Paris (chief of the police, "préfet" was an high-ranking officer grade in the roman army) declared that from now, any Paris Saint-Germain football club request to organize an event on public areas will be rejected.

According to him, more than 800 policemen and anti-riot forces were ready this evening, which is already a little army.

The way I see it, this is an organization disaster caused by a terrible communication between the different entities. Everyone worked in its small corner and shared nothing, as usual here. :facepalm:

 

[FADEC]

This is one reason why I never liked football (not even when I was a kid) - because of its plebs and thugs. France, GB, Germany etc. it doesn't matter where. This kind of sport just attracts them. Of course I'm aware that the majority of fans are normal / nice people. But it doesn't take away the fact that brawling, riots, burning terraces etc. does not happen in relation to tennis, swimming, cycling, or motorsport for example. I think it's because football is an aggressive sport with body contact.

In other words: I'm not surprised at all.

 

[sorindafabico]

This is one reason why I never liked football (not even when I was a kid) - because of its plebs and thugs. France, GB, Germany etc. it doesn't matter where. This kind of sport just attracts them. Of course I'm aware that the majority of fans are normal / nice people. But it doesn't take away the fact that brawling, riots, burning terraces etc. does not happen in relation to tennis, swimming, cycling, or motorsport for example. I think it's because football is an aggressive sport with body contact.

In other words: I'm not surprised at all.

Greco-Roman wrestling has a lot more body contact and agression than football and I don't see Greco-Roman wrestling fans doing this. Football is a lot more massificated and popular than any other sport in the overwhelming majority of countries, so, tthe probability of this type of incident happen to football fans is far greater.


Anyway...I don't know the cause of this. Were they...bored?

 

[llarian]

Probably not ... just put alcohol in with the nihilists, neo-punks, and other young idiots. They need a crowd to feed off their antics.

It isn't just football, either. North America has had it's own difficulties with the morons. Especially where hockey is concerned.

 

[tl8]

Some food for thought. Down here in Oz, both the major codes of football (AFL and NRL) don't have major issues with this sort of thing. However Soccer (Association Football) does have these sort of things reasonable often. Melbourne is a particular hotspot. In addition, the Australian Open is also a trouble maker, mainly the Eastern Europeans from previously unstable countries.

Motorsport here is generally quite clean except for a few issues at Bathurst (Biggest event of the year in Oz motorsport). The Ford and Holden fans can get a bit restless.

 

[Cosmic Penguin]

Note that Manchester United also had their own celebration parade yesterday, and I don't hear that Manchester got occupied with the Red Devil fans.......

 

[MattBaker]

I think it's because football is an aggressive sport with body contact.

Every fandom of everything is just an image of society as a whole. Sure, certain types of people will always be attracted to one kind of thing but in the end football fans, the police or the orbiter-forum are just random people out of society.

Now if we assume that 0.1% of society are violent lunatics (0.1%, sure thing Matt...) we have 22 madmen in the biggest tennis stadium of the world.
But if we take 100,000 Parisians interested into football we have 100 madmen. If we have ten million people in Rio celebrating the 2014 World Cup we have 10,000 madmen.

So it's quite logical you don't find many violent incidents in your local shooting club when there are 100 guys but there is violence when thousands of people are interested into an event.

Some food for thought. Down here in Oz, both the major codes of football (AFL and NRL) don't have major issues with this sort of thing. However Soccer (Association Football) does have these sort of things reasonable often. Melbourne is a particular hotspot. In addition, the Australian Open is also a trouble maker, mainly the Eastern Europeans from previously unstable countries.

Any idea how much alcohol is involved into watching the different sports?

At least I would say alcohol raises the "violent lunatic ratio" (TM) by factor a>5.

 

[tl8]

Any idea how much alcohol is involved into watching the different sports?

At least I would say alcohol raises the "violent lunatic ratio" (TM) by factor a>5.

Lots. All about except the Tennis is a bit less.
There was a 'uproar' a few years back when they limited the amount of beer aloud into Bathurst to 24 cans per person per day (Which for a typical group of 4 for 4 days is quite a lot).

 

[Urwumpe]

I think it isn't about body contact, but about fan culture and idiot ratio. Rugby has much more body contact, but such riots are pretty uncommon there. Rugby has the same alcohol content amongs its fans, but still less riots.

I think the worst problem of football can be labeled "Ultras" and "Hooligans". I especially hate the first kind. Whenever all old fan clubs of Wolfsburg agreed on something, fan clubs which had been active already in second division times, the Ultras (First appeared in 2000 here) opposed it and wanted special treatment. What the Ultras have in common: They are just loud vandals, who can wear the proper shirt, but don't know the players of the team they claim to support. It is all just about showing that you are different and better than others in your tiny world, to the point of seeking violent fights with other Ultras. If I would have the choice, I would let them have their tiny world on the roof of the arena, on top of us all... and where they can't disturb the real fans.

 

[jedidia]

I think it's because football is an aggressive sport with body contact.

I shouldn't think so... Ice Hockey, for example, is the only sport known to me where fights break out regularly on the field of play, and where it's possible to legaly tackle an opponent right of the field without the game even being interrupted (appart from fighting sports, obviously), yet the riot ratio among the fans is nowhere near the soccer level (there's some every now and then, but it is usually a rather exceptional happening rather than the rule, even at high-level games).

I think it's got something to do with the overzealous identification some soccer fans tend to have with "their" team. I understand how it can get coupled to national pride and nationalism in national games, but how such a strong bond could form between individuals and privately owned clubs is really beyond me. There's some rather fanatic Icehockey fans too, but they are extremely rare, and most people primarily seem to come to enjoy the game (especially including any outbreaking fights therein).

 

[Urwumpe]

If I remember correctly, US and Canadian Ice Hockey actually have player positions especially for such brawls, with people who are not really the best hockey players, but extremely good fighters. And that simply for discouraging the opposing team to start a brawl.

We only had Oliver "Kung-Foo" Kahn in football.

 

[N_Molson]

I think the worst problem of football can be labeled "Ultras" and "Hooligans".

It actually seems that the "Ultras" actually lit out the fire, and got them selseves overhelmed by what happened next.

Anyway...I don't know the cause of this. Were they...bored?

The sad answer is yes... A lot of young people, often of foreign origins (but french and born in France), live in Paris suburbs, which are pretty much getthos, and have no work, no hope for future, and no money to spend in entertainement. So when they hear of something like that, they take a "revenge" on the society that completely forgot them. That's the way I see it. By young I mean 15-25, rarely older.

Any idea how much alcohol is involved into watching the different sports?

Here, in football and especially during a final like this : the answer is "more than a lot". And not only beer, strong alcohols too. And usually marijuana, MDMA and other (all illegal) drugs comes with it. TV showed drunk people drinking beer on the streets, and it seems pretty normal. I think that there is something like getting in trance state with drugs and alcohol and then search an additionnal adrenaline boost by fighting the anti-riot forces.

At least I would say alcohol raises the "violent lunatic ratio" (TM) by factor a>5.

Definitively, and drugs are factor b>20

-

Anyway, I want to explain to non-French people what really went wrong in the police organization. It's a very classic thing here. Police and "gendarmerie" forces have to work together, but there is a sort of rivalry between the two instances that can often lead to a complete lack of communication. My guess is that it happened here again : massive forces were deployed, but coordinated command failed (the green lines on my pic). :facepalm:

 

[FADEC]

Greco-Roman wrestling has a lot more body contact and agression than football and I don't see Greco-Roman wrestling fans doing this.

I think because it's a completely different sport, i.e. a duel and above all "fake"/exhibition fight.

Every fandom of everything is just an image of society as a whole. Sure, certain types of people will always be attracted to one kind of thing but in the end football fans, the police or the orbiter-forum are just random people out of society.

Now if we assume that 0.1% of society are violent lunatics (0.1%, sure thing Matt...) we have 22 madmen in the biggest tennis stadium of the world.
But if we take 100,000 Parisians interested into football we have 100 madmen. If we have ten million people in Rio celebrating the 2014 World Cup we have 10,000 madmen.

So it's quite logical you don't find many violent incidents in your local shooting club when there are 100 guys but there is violence when thousands of people are interested into an event.

There are also thousands of people interested in marathon. Up to tenth of thousands participating, plus thousands of bystanders.

Any idea how much alcohol is involved into watching the different sports?

At least I would say alcohol raises the "violent lunatic ratio" (TM) by factor a>5.

That's another contributor, and another reason why I didn't like football already as a kid. Because I didn't like beery breath, especially in combination with noisy bawling. I was in a football stadium only once, with my father, when I was very young (elementary school age). Call me a sissy if you like, but the noisy masses scared me. And they still would today...

I think it isn't about body contact, but about fan culture and idiot ratio. Rugby has much more body contact, but such riots are pretty uncommon there. Rugby has the same alcohol content amongs its fans, but still less riots.

Which makes football even more "special".

But in my case the antipathy also comes from a general phobia of crowds and mainstream. I never liked most things which are popular among masses. I never understood why everyone needs a cell phone for example, or a car, or is interested in football, listens to the charts, or watches the Eurovision Song Contest, or two and a half men. etc. All this always bored the crap out of me. Yes. It might sound strange, but I can't and don't want to help it

Already as a kid I always liked aviation and space flight instead of most other things. And instead of watching football or something like that today, I prefer watching Tex having nice rides with his bike I'm not even interested when a world championship takes place. I can't even remember who won the last one, because it just seems so irrelevant to me.

Back in school I always chose volleyball or preferably swimming by the way. Not because of the girls :lol: But because it was not as popular as football, and therefore it was quiet and enjoyable small groups without bystanders.

 

[Urwumpe]

I never understood why everyone needs a cell phone for example, or a car, or is interested in football, listens to the charts, or watches the Eurovision Song Contest, or two and a half men. etc. All this always bored the crap out of me. Yes. It might sound strange, but I can't and don't want to help it

Cell Phone: check² (one private and one for work)
Car: check
football: check (But playing it myself is better than just watching others do it)
listens to the charts: ... ... ... no, not really. I don't like Schlager.
Eurovision Song Contest: check. You can learn more about European identity in one evening of ESC, than in millions of lectures and books.
Two And a Half Men: I hate laughter from tape. But without this tape, it can be really entertaining.

 

[FADEC]

Cell Phone: check² (one private and one for work)
Car: check

Some people are surprised that I can exist without a car and without a cell phone (while they are even more surprised of not having a cell phone rather than a car). But I'm surprised that they are surprised. Because it works. And why shouldn't it? It also worked before. It's not a real must- have. It's a collective feeling of must-have. A feeling which I never got. A phone which one can carry wireless and use everywhere? :hmm:

I completely skipped the cell phone era, which I think is going to end and will turn into an era of small portable computers which can do everything. So I ordered a tablet PC yesterday, which is something very special in my case. But I did it in order to replace "paper" (i.e. newspapers, books, operating manuals and documents for use with flight simulators etc.).

Eurovision Song Contest: check. You can learn more about European identity in one evening of ESC, than in millions of lectures and books.

I'm not sure. I think traveling within Europe might help a lot more than watching ESC (or reading books).

Two And a Half Men: I hate laughter from tape. But without this tape, it can be really entertaining.

I also hate laughter from tape. One reason why I never liked soaps. Another reason is the unnatural studio environment which always looks like it's filmed in a furniture store :lol:

 

[N_Molson]

Of course, it now turns to a political turmoil, as if there wasn't enough to worry about :facepalm:

 

[PennyBlack]

This reminds me of a napoleonic war picture painted in oils. Dispite what it represents, it is a captivating image.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

If I remember correctly, US and Canadian Ice Hockey actually have player positions especially for such brawls, with people who are not really the best hockey players, but extremely good fighters. And that simply for discouraging the opposing team to start a brawl.

We only had Oliver "Kung-Foo" Kahn in football.

Not something that I like as a hockey fan, because most "enforcers" are complete idiots, barely able to play the game. A lot of them suffer from substance abuse & concussion issues, as was shown with Derek Boogaard.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Boogaard"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Boogaard[/ame]

Never heard of Oliver Kahn, sounds interesting...

 

[Urwumpe]

Never heard of Oliver Kahn, sounds interesting...

Well, searching for "Oliver Kahn Kung Fu" in Google Images will bring some good results there. :lol: He is really legendary.

 

[4throck]

It has little to do with football. It's a sign of deep social problems. France has not succeeded in integration of numerous social groups, specially on the big cities.

Of course, this happens in any country, but France had better resources to deal with it than most... it is sad.

I'd strongly recommend the bus trip to Le Bourget (air and space museum). Excellent museum and a trip to the real suburbs:
http://goo.gl/maps/lBBFH


I really wish that France finds it's way. Great culture and an unique way of thinking. And a nice (although difficult) language!
In the past, the solutions found in France paved the way for important advances to Humanity (French Revolution, May 68, etc). I hope it happens again...