Updates SpaceX Falcon 9 F5 CRS SpX-2 through CRS SpX-12 Updates

Andy44

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Bad decision. Never sue your future customers.

To use your favorite response: Wrong. :cheers:

In the US aerospace business companies sue each other and their government customers for these sorts of things fairly often, while making deals and working together on other programs at the same time. All part of doing business. Sometimes, the government wants you to sue them, so that they can make a policy change that would otherwise be politically difficult.

This seems like the wrong time for a domestic businessman to get involved into international politics that are another kind of rocket science he does not fully understand but use for good PR.;)

Again, this is all about business. If you are selling anything to Congress, you have to push the right buttons. The "patriotic" button and the "more American jobs" button are very popular with congressmen.

It's distasteful, but when you roll with hogs you get muddy. SpaceX is still young and fresh and its charismatic founder is in his prime, but I predict in the decades to come they will sell their soul to the government much in the same manner as Lockheed and Northrop did a long time ago. Space just doesn't have a non-government market, unfortunately. Like many of us, Musk probably wants to change that, but it's a hard road.

Back on subject - Come on Elon, send me some video of that first stage touchdown! Please!

Agreed. Show me some video!
 

Kyle

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In the US aerospace business companies sue each other and their government customers for these sorts of things fairly often, while making deals and working together on other programs at the same time. All part of doing business. Sometimes, the government wants you to sue them, so that they can make a policy change that would otherwise be politically difficult.

Relevant example:
Boeing Sues U.S. for $260.4 Million for Launch Program
 

Mader Levap

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Ah well... hey, do you hear this? The 60s just called, they want their technology back.
What technology? Recovering stage? May I ask about 60's technology (or any decade, for that matter) that had returning first stage to sea (soon to be "to land") with legs, supersonic retro propulsion and all that jazz?

I just don't like people being dishonest for the sake of their business and to attract fanboys.
Dishonest? If you are speaking about long term plans and Mars ambitions, I agree he is unlikely to retire and die on Mars, but not for lack of trying. He simply was born too early.
In other words he does not lie, he is mistaken. Big difference.

Also I do believe Musk is just an amateur rocket hobbyist. He is the CEO, not the chief engineer.
In early days of SpaceX he was involved directly. So, nope. It is like boss that is former programmer in IT company.
 

Urwumpe

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What technology? Recovering stage? May I ask about 60's technology (or any decade, for that matter) that had returning first stage to sea (soon to be "to land") with legs, supersonic retro propulsion and all that jazz?.


STS-135_begins_takeoff.jpg


And it was even manned. And mostly 60s technology, if you exclude the later upgrades.
 

Hlynkacg

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Yeah, but NASA had to burn that money in an attempt to keep some of their experienced people from STS from walking. Not efficient at all, but that's the way NASA has to operate to keep their experienced folks on board between programs. I'll be surprised if SLS or Orion make it to the pad, never mind into space, but it keeps engineers busy and avoids a vacuum where budgets would tend to get cut to zero for lack of activity.

...

I'm honestly not sure if this is sarcasm. If not I must be having one of those "fundamental disconnect" or "Queeg" moments.

Seriously, what is NASA's purpose? is it to advance human knowledge of Aeronautics and Space Flight or is it just a welfare program for white-collar Floridians and Houstonians?

Paying people to work on something that you know will never fly is not just "inefficient" it is counter-productive. You're literally spending money to PREVENT people from building actual rockets. Money could just as easily be spent on actually trying to advance human knowledge of Aeronautics and Space Flight.
 
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Urwumpe

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Paying people to work on something that you know will never fly is not just "inefficient" it is counter-productive. You're literally spending money to PREVENT people from building actual rockets.

Actually, it is something that you will also find in the private sector.

You have people with special skills that you can't easily replace, but for which you have right now no project. Or you have a generation change in your department, and need to keep older and newer specialists busy to prevent a future lack of such skills. Once they are gone, you can't just easily get them back.

Hiring and firing them would be really ineffective. But still, you have to ask the question, if you need to be developing a SLS and also pay money to private companies. There could be better projects to let them stay occupied. The only people who wanted the SLS sit in congress and these mostly feared that they might have bad economic news in their districts. So they used tax payers money to produce some fake good news - at least for the next few years, until SLS has progressed so far, that questions of its utility will even pop up among the voters.
 
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Thunder Chicken

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...

I'm honestly not sure if this is sarcasm. If not I must be having one of those "fundamental disconnect" or "Queeg" moments.

Seriously, what is NASA's purpose? is it to advance human knowledge of Aeronautics and Space Flight or is it just a welfare program for white-collar Floridians and Houstonians?

Paying people to work on something that you know will never fly is not just "inefficient" it is counter-productive. You're literally spending money to PREVENT people from building actual rockets. Money could just as easily be spent on actually trying to advance human knowledge of Aeronautics and Space Flight.

No sarcasm at all. NASA's mission IS to advance human knowledge of aeronautics and space flight, a mission that often involves programs that take several decades to plan and execute. Sadly, NASA is stuck with a political appropriations situation where they need to keep churning out a new shiny for the politicians within each electoral cycle to keep the limited money that they do get in their budget.

Some people might call these paper projects pork, and they might be right. But a good bit of that "pork" comes in the form of retaining very smart and experienced people, people who really want to be working on cutting edge research projects. Call it white collar welfare if you wish, but it really is an exercise in human resources retention.

NASA right now is figuring out just how much of its LEO operations can be farmed out to commercial interests, and are trying to figure out a logical long term direction for NASA. It's a transitional time and they don't quite know what direction they are going to need to go. What they DO know is that they need to keep their hard-won program experience and people close by to lead future efforts, whatever they may be.

If all of that knowledge up and walked out the door, how many years and how much money would it take to resurrect an organization with the same capability? How much knowledge would need to be re-learned, possibly in a hard and bloody way? If you look at organizations that have done this sort of downsizing and attempted to build their capacity again later you'll see that in the long run it is much more economical to pay people to rearrange their pencils on their desks for a while until business picks up.

The alternatives to "white collar welfare" in technical programs are cutting experienced staff and then hoping they will come back, or worse - believing that you can hire some young kid fresh out of school and they will automagically have the same wisdom, experience, and capability of someone who has been through the fire several times. These alternatives are the favorites of the company bean-counters, but they never work well for highly-technical engineering & scientific programs, government or commercial.
 

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About the legs on the F9 1st stage.... :hmm:

Elon Musk
‏@elonmusk
Partly cleaned up frame from rocket landing. Full stream posted on http://spacex.com tmrw pic.twitter.com/3c754LVYVK

BmX_IzcCIAA1I3U.jpg:orig
 

Cosmic Penguin

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Errmmmmm............here's the proof.... :shifty:


 
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Hlynkacg

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Some people might call these paper projects pork, and they might be right. But a good bit of that "pork" comes in the form of retaining very smart and experienced people, people who really want to be working on cutting edge research projects. Call it white collar welfare if you wish, but it really is an exercise in human resources retention.

This is based on the presumption that those personnel should be retained in the first place.

If you aren't going to use them let someone else do so.

Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that NASA is just "saving them for the next project". The "Experienced workers" of the STS era are already retiring and will likely dead and buried before that "next project" comes along.

In the meantime we're funneling people and funds from R&D and projects that might actually fly.
 

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Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that NASA is just "saving them for the next project". The "Experienced workers" of the STS era are already retiring and will likely dead and buried before that "next project" comes along.

There is just one problem with that view: How do you train new engineers to the skill level, that you have enough of them?

It is not about retaining people, it is about retaining skills. Big ugly difference. But skills are contained in people. You can't just make the experienced people write some books, so that the younger ones can read them. Books are nice, but better is mentoring. Having experienced engineers leading young engineers and explaining them all the tricks and experiences, that are not written in books yet and which university did not teach them.


It is the same in good software companies. You could kick out all the COBOL programmers. But those also know about best practices and processes, that younger programmers will also need and which books can't teach properly. The difference between how it should be done in a perfect world - and how you do it.
 

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Urwumpe

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They should just bolt a GoPro on the thing in future flights, especially since they are (hopefully) getting the stage back and can physically access the camera. They can continue to try downlink but a camera would be cheap insurance of getting good quality video.

If you look at what NASA did in the 60s, this video is pretty disappointing. Even storing HD video on a microSD card would have worked better than this.

It shows IMHO that SpaceX still lacks professionalism for testing. Getting the recovery working is maybe said to be important for SpaceX, but they seem to rather spend hundred thousands of USD for a next attempt on the next ISS flight, than a few thousand USD for three proper engineering cams for the whole program.

These videos are more like having something to show at all, when it was successful - instead of having some good views of the rocket, should the landing have failed or show anomalies.
 

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If you look at what NASA did in the 60s, this video is pretty disappointing. Even storing HD video on a microSD card would have worked better than this.

It shows IMHO that SpaceX still lacks professionalism for testing. Getting the recovery working is maybe said to be important for SpaceX, but they seem to rather spend hundred thousands of USD for a next attempt on the next ISS flight, than a few thousand USD for three proper engineering cams for the whole program.

These videos are more like having something to show at all, when it was successful - instead of having some good views of the rocket, should the landing have failed or show anomalies.

They have enough data to know that the vehicle zeroed velocity before touching the ocean. Most likely whatever data they got is far more useful than having actual video of it. I'd bet the data includes a whole bunch of sensor readings.

No video from last attempt, yet the managed to understand the vehicle spun up and lost thrust.

You of all people should understand the values of certain variables in a program are more important when looking for bugs than the final outcome...
 

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You of all people should understand the values of certain variables in a program are more important when looking for bugs than the final outcome...

How stupid is this claim?

I can test dozens of variables in a program for having the correct values as expected by the unit tests automatically. But it takes me only one brief look at the program window and maybe the CPU load and network traffic monitors, to see when something is going the wrong way despite measuring the expected values initially. Maybe I was expecting the wrong values, maybe I was lacking imagination and did not instrument this.

Its a matter of seeing the big picture or getting lost in the details. A rocket like the Falcon 9 has easily thousands of telemetry variable streams, the more, the easier you can automatize things. Nobody can really tell about more than his own subsystem. A lot of time is getting lost in playing blame ping pong, before you finally arrive at the true cause of an anomaly.

Which a simple well placed camera at the crucial spot could have detected already in the first analysis, maybe even in real time.
 
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