McCain Chooses Palin as Running Mate

Isn't that the whole idea behind terrorism? The point of the matter is that you have to be vigliant, and even then that doesn't work.

No, the idea of terrorism is to create fear. If your government helps creating fear, it helps the terrorists. Security does not come from new abstract terror warnings, but by spoiling terror plots.

How do you want to defend against terrorism, if you stop seeing the forest because of the trees? Or better: The real terrorists because your mind is so saturated with false threats?

Vigilance is IMHO, watching real threats and react adequate to them. Not imaginary.
 
No, the idea of terrorism is to create fear. If your government helps creating fear, it helps the terrorists. Security does not come from new abstract terror warnings, but by spoiling terror plots.

How do you want to defend against terrorism, if you stop seeing the forest because of the trees? Or better: The real terrorists because your mind is so saturated with false threats?

Vigilance is IMHO, watching real threats and react adequate to them. Not imaginary.

The point I was trying to make was as you stated... that terriorist could be anywhere, at anytime. (e.g. fear....)

As to what is a false threat and what is not is way above my pay grade. Of course the vetting of such threats is for those who are specialized in the intelligence field. (Reminds me of a time that I was in a Military Intelligence Unit in the Army... we called it Mexican Infantry :P [This is not meant as an insult to my friends south of the
border either.])

McCain, unlike Mr. Obama, has been consistent in his stance. I see him as having too much integrity to resort to underhanded practices that President Bush may or may not have committed.

Those who claim that McCain would be a 3rd Bush term are ill-informed.
 
The question is going to be put to all Americans, when it comes time to vote, " Do you feel safer now, than before Bush took office ? " That will be, the deciding factor, for most people, who actually vote.

That doesn't seem to be a very useful question. Before Bush took office, terrorism was infrequent and (usually) far away, and people felt safe, I suppose. Then, the World Trade Center towers were destroyed, and people felt less safe.

The proper question, now, might be: would you feel safer if Obama took office, or if McCain took office, or if somebody else took office?
 
Those who claim that McCain would be a 3rd Bush term are ill-informed.

Nobody can be a second Bush... really nobody.


-----Posted Added-----


The proper question, now, might be: would you feel safer if Obama took office, or if McCain took office, or if somebody else took office?

Let me do the job. I am neither democrat nor republican (I am too far left to be democrat), and you would sure feel much safer afterwards.

I just promise to have a McDonalds franchise and IMAX cinema in every bigger town in the middle East. Including Tehran. And I create a large terror theme park in the middle of Nebraska. Including the suicide bomber rollercoaster ride and the IED show. I will rescue the US economy by making sure, US products can be brought anywhere in the world. Even in North Korea. Free trade for free products!

I will make sure, that the people get USA, when they buy USA. :boss:
 
I do no see how you can come to that conclusion. Can you give some specific reasons for this opinion? I see her as someone who actually understands that she works for the PEOPLE, and not special interests. She is "ballsie." That in and of itself peaks my interest.

I confess, my opinion is mostly an intuitive hunch based on some very thin and preliminary information (but intuition is a major component of my personality, and I trust it).

Two items that wisper, IMHO, "Intellectual lightweight:"
1. Palin's membership in, and apparent devotion to, an evangelical church featuring speaking in tongues.

2. Report that Palin was asked in 2006, "Do you take offence to the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why or why not?" Paraphrasing her response, ~If it was good enough for the Founding Fathers, it's good enough for me.~

***After writing that second one I tried tracking it down. It looks very "blogospheric." Them damn "internets" - talk about lightweight.

OK, I will hold my hunches to myself and wait to see what she actually has to say (unfiltered by the web). But honestly, why would I vote for a Vice President I literally met just last week??
 
Eagle Forum Alaska archive

11. Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?
SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.
 
I create a large terror theme park in the middle of Nebraska. Including the suicide bomber rollercoaster ride and the IED show.

Well, voters will need to be satisfied with your answers to these important campaign questions: can we be sure that he will use only official products of the ACME Company? And will the rides pass safety tests (and can we please watch the tests, for fun)? And is that USA Birth Certificate an official ACME forgery, or something inferior?
 
I just gotta jump in and say two things after reading up on her and seeing her speech and the RNC convention ...

1 - I like her ... a lot ... she seems very honest, very straightforward, a straight shooter. She's pro 2nd Amendment, pro America, very VERY against government waste and corruption. Very reminiscent of Reagan in a lot of ways.

1a - she can field-dress a moose. :wub:

2 - It's very telling when the Presidential candidate of one party has to go all-out to try to prove he's better than the Vice-Presidential candidate of the other. :blackeye:
 
Well, I actually have little experience with "reality TV," since it doesn't entertain me, but I am fairly confident that its participants do not include "most people" - even if I did suppose that "almost anything for money" included publicly telling disparaging lies about a close associate.

I did not say most people were in reality tv. I said most people will do anything for money. Reality TV was simply one of many examples of that behavior.

and to suppose that they were the ones likely to be (unanimously) dishonest, in contravention of professional habits and personal honor, would seem to be contrary to an Occam's Razor consideration.

The Occam's Razor part is true, but is truth determined by majority opinion?



Originally Posted by replicant (David quoting me)
"I did say maybe, meaning it was just an idea to chew on."

(David)Actually, your original statement was:

Originally Posted by replicant (David quoting me)
I seem to recall the right had no problem four years ago when John Kerry was "swiftboated" in attacks that were all lies.

No, sorry, the statement about the lying swiftboaters was not the statement with the "maybe" in it. You clipped one quote and then applied it to my original satement. The statement that you quoted of mine originally and that I referred to the "maybe" in was this:

By the way, has anyone considered that none of them were war criminals? Maybe they were just a bunch of guys payed a boatload of money to tell lies about John Kerry, who was in fact the one maligned.

In response you asked:

how likely is that, really?

I replied:

Not LIKELY, but not impossible. It was not likely that someone like Dubya could become President, but it happened. However, I did say maybe, meaning it was just an idea to chew on.

The "maybe" refers to the idea that they were not war criminals, or that they were paid, not "maybe they were liars."


But never mind. I welcome your having calmed down, a bit.

I have no problem calming down when I am not being intimidated, harrassed, insulted, labeled, and called a liar.



I'm not sure what you mean, here. John Kerry accused others of being war criminals. Of the various things that the Swiftboat Vets group had to say about him, I don't recall that accusing him of war crimes, was included.

Washington D.C.
11 July 2003

.... a report that Senator John Kerry, decorated Vietnam veteran and
presidential aspirant, was alleged to have shot to death a Viet Cong
suspect while he (the suspect) was unarmed and running away. Our
source, an ex-army buddy of the senator's, was recently interviewed by
correspondent, Brad Jones, and has stated that Kerry ran after (the
suspect) and shot him in the back. Giving his statement under express
condition that his anonymity be protected, he said, "That little guy
was just really afraid, that's all. He sort of stumbled upon us or we
stumbled upon him, I don't remember which, and he just dropped his
weapon and ran away, screaming like a kid who'd just seen the
bogeyman. John ran after him and commanded him to stop. When he
wouldn't do it, John just emptied his clip. By the time the rest of
us got over there, he was finishing him off. Lots of blood. He was
one dead VC, I'll tell Ya.

James "Bud" Miller, TTNS

http://www.mombu.com/politics/repub...hooting-a-vc-suspect-in-the-back-1625120.html

In this case, it does not matter the credibility of the source, any written word of it proves that the accusation, does in fact exist.

I can sympathize with your concern that disparaging accusations should be proven or not made, but I don't suppose that the Swiftboaters' statements were outrageous, in the context in which they were made, nor was Kerry, himself, exactly rigorous in characterizing, disparagingly, his associates - which was part of what motivated the Swiftboaters, in the first place.

Indeed, revenge was most likely a motivator. However, of all the swiftboaters who called themselves shipmates, only one who made negative statements about Kerry actually served with him on a swiftboat. The others who ACTUALLY served directly under him made positive statements. a MAJORITY among those who were in ACTUAL gunfights with Kerry. That's a pretty good indication that the negative statements of the other swiftboaters were all lies, whether they were war criminals or not.


www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

This somewhat or completey negates that I have to prove the negative commentators were war criminals to show they were liars.

Again, speak to me without labels and insults, and I will respond in kind.





I don't suppose that the Bush camp had any basis for disputing the common statements of a group constituted by nearly all of Kerry's military associates

Depends on who "nearly all" is. All the swiftboaters? or those who actually served in gunbattles with him.

In contrast, Sarah Palin has, in no way, based her political campaign for Vice-President, upon her 17y/o daughter's sexual behavior.

I respectfully disagree. She is very much running on a platform of the good Christian wife and mother. The platform of the steadfast personally responsible bucker of the status quo. The platform of the Dobson family model. Pregnant teen daughters and their sexual behavior have become the status quo.
 
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The Occam's Razor part is true, but is truth determined by majority opinion?

No, and it's not determined by Occam's Razor, either. But in the absence of determinative proof about events, the preponderance of evidence, and likelihood, is a meaningful standard for evaluation. Also, yours was the affirmative assertion, introducing this subject of discussion, that the Swifboat Vets' assertions were "all lies." Considering that they represented similar testimonies by a very large number of persons, I'm inclined to regard the preponderance of evidence, about Kerry's military career, as being on their side. Much less likely, is that they were all lying.

of all the swiftboaters who called themselves shipmates, only one who made negative statements about Kerry actually served with him on a swiftboat. The others who ACTUALLY served directly under him made positive statements. a MAJORITY among those who were in ACTUAL gunfights with Kerry. That's a pretty good indication that the negative statements of the other swiftboaters were all lies, whether they were war criminals or not.

Not at all. There were various assertions made about Kerry, by the Swiftboaters, pertaining to their observations about him. That they formed an opinion about him, in specified circumstances, while others formed a different opinion about him, in different circumstances, does nothing to "indicate" that either set, of associates, was "lying" in their opinions or descriptions of events.

As an analogy, I could describe the Moon as a pretty, bright disk in the sky, and if a bunch of astronauts describe it as being, instead, bleak and dusty, then this provides no indication that their descriptions and opinions are "all lies."

I respectfully disagree. She is very much running on a platform of the good Christian wife and mother. The platform of the steadfast personally responsible bucker of the status quo. The platform of the Dobson family model. Pregnant teen daughters and their sexual behavior have become the status quo.

First, I'm not aware that she has claimed to be running on "a platform of the good Christian wife and mother" or "[t]he platform of the Dobson family model," or that McCain or his campaign team has claimed that she is running on such "platforms." Instead, my observations have been that her "platform" seems to be that she is a "politically conservative" woman with executive experience and political courage in opposing governmental corruption, and that her political activities will particularly include the pursuit of low taxation, the elimination of superfluous and corrupt governmental behaviors and the development of domestic energy sources.

I can only guess that you are assuming that, since she is alleged, by her supporters, to be "a conservative," then this means that they, or she, or McCain, are claiming that she is morally faultless, and that her children are, too, and that any evident absence of moral perfection in the family, is thus "hypocrisy," as if being a campaign argument to be rebutted.

In fact, my observations have been that "conservatives" tend to be quite straightforward in acknowledging that they do not claim that they are morally perfect, but merely that they value some traditional moral standards, and that they try to exemplify them, and that they wish others to exemplify them.

Asserting that Sarah Palin's teenage daughter does not exemplify such moral perfection, and even that VP candidate Sarah Palin, herself, does not exemplify such moral perfection - inasmuch as having failed to establish such moral perfection in her daughter - pertains not at all to her campaign that has not sought to represent her (or her daughter) as morally perfect, and thus has not misrepresented her, and thus has not exemplified any "hypocrisy" to be "rebutted." Instead, it is - politically - merely unkind insult to a teenager who is not seeking any political office and, at best, impertinent insult to the candidate who has not misrepresented herself and will furthermore have to deal with the difficulty of her family situation (which, btw, is the point of this sort of moral criticism: teenage pregnancy is to be discouraged because it makes life difficult for the teenager and perhaps her family; the purpose of this sort of moral criticism is not the seeking to score points and gain one's own advantage, in cynical pursuit of political power).

One might argue a justification for personally criticizing the teenager for violating moral standards, or even a justification for personally criticizing the candidate as being an inadequate disciplinarian of her child, but there is no recognizable justification for alluding to the candidate's teenage daughter's pregnancy, as if this constitutes political criticism.
 
David: I disagree in many points. Lets start at the following observation:

She uses her family as reason to elect her and McCain. She did not speak much about her politics, but about her good conservative family. She should be elected because she is a mom, her husband does this and that, her son goes to the army *applause* and goes to Iraq *more applause* (And if I were her son, this would have been the point to mumble...I'll go where I am needed, Mom! Not where you would like me to go.)

So, the whole family has to be used as reference. Not only her selected examples.
Now comes the problem: If her family would be the USA, 50% of all female teenagers would be pregnant early. Of course, this is a bad generalization. But even with some more accuracy, you have to say, that her politics of no sexual education for teenagers must have had some important effects (and even outside her family, there is a correlation between lack of or bad sexual education for teenagers and the teenage pregnancy rate - nature finds it's way).

And her political history is sure no good reason to elect her, even for the most mind-numbed habitual republican. When McCain talks about reducing government funding, why does he select a VP, who was responsible for a very large share of this government funding?

I don't think that she is really a supporter of McCain's politics, there are too many opposites (Economics, Abortion, Iraq war, Iran, Guantanamo). She wants power and that is something, which makes her for somebody of McCain's experience manageable. But that makes her the last reason to vote McCain.
 
First, if Palin were to become president and attempted to make some kind of national legal mandate to force the teaching creationism, I would soon go broke from donating to ANYONE who would oppose her.

I'd have a legal question about that: As far as I know teaching creationism (or "intelligent design" as ruled in the Kitzmiller vs. Dover School case) violates the First Amendment to the Constitution. So if wikipedia and the other sources are correct, Palin effectively encourages to break the constitution. In Germany something like this is a crime, is she allowed to do that in the US?

Cheers
Tschachim
 
In Germany something like this is a crime, is she allowed to do that in the US?

In Germany, such things would not be automatically a crime. Members of the parliament are explicitly allowed to promote violations of the constitution - changes to it would otherwise be impossible.

Also it is also like that in Germany, that laws can violate the constitution until the supreme court steps in. otherwise, the last two governments would not even had two legal laws out.
 
Yes, I'm not sure if she suggests to change the First Amendment, to do a law that violates it (and then would be canceled by a court again) or to directly do something that violates it without changing the law, this is why I asked.
 
I'd have a legal question about that: As far as I know teaching creationism (or "intelligent design" as ruled in the Kitzmiller vs. Dover School case) violates the First Amendment to the Constitution. So if wikipedia and the other sources are correct, Palin effectively encourages to break the constitution. In Germany something like this is a crime, is she allowed to do that in the US?

I wasn't going to write any more in this thread ... but I've never been known for having very good will-power when it comes to ... anything ...

If it could be shown that what Palin is doing is advocating "establishment of religion" then it would be unconstitutional under the First Amendment. It is not a crime in the United States to advocate acts contrary to the Constitution. If it were 75% of university professors would be in prison.

... that's a joke ...

Seriously, it would be a crime for an elected official who has sworn to uphold the Constitution to advocate unconstitutional acts, if they've sworn to uphold the Constitution, which all federal and most state officials do.

BUT

The first question is always whether what is being advocated is unconstitutional. Although I am certain that "Intelligent Design" is a religious idea, there are some "ID" advocates who sincerely believe that it is not (see the discussion in the "sticks and stones" thread about ID). They would likely argue that a legal mandate for teaching creationsim is not an "establishment of religion."

Let me give you an example. One of the things that John McCain is most known for is his advocacy for laws that restrict the ability of interest groups like corporations and labor unions and wealthy individuals to make large financial contributions to politician's election funds. Many people argued that such restrictions were unconstitutional. Whatever you may think about the negative influence of large campaign contributions, the arguments were very good on a purely technical basis -- and also on a less technical level.

Was McCain doing something illegal or even morally wrong by advocating restrictions on campaign contributions? How about when he actually got the law passed (which he did)?

Likewise when Palin used her power as governor to veto a law passed by the Alaska legislature that restricted certain legal rights for homosexuals. She did this, she said, because she believed the law was unconstitutional under the Alaska constiution. Had the Alaska legislature done something legally wrong by passing a law that Palin believed (based on what her counsel told her the Alaska Supreme Court had decided in other cases) was uncostitutional?

Second, there is the matter of what actually acts as an "establishment of religion" under the 1st Amendment. I believe that a FEDERAL legal mandate for the teaching of creationism would be. But what if a federal official merely advocates the teaching of creationism, but takes no act to legally mandate it? I don't know for sure, but I would expect that all the state constitutions have similar provisions -- but they might not. So, techncially, if a state constitution would allow "establishment", then merely advocating that it do so would not be prohibited by the US Constitution.
 
Yes, I'm not sure if she suggests to change the First Amendment, to do a law that violates it (and then would be canceled by a court again) or to directly do something that violates it without changing the law, this is why I asked.

In the USA you cannot change the Constitution, AFAIK. And she'll never go against the First Amendment that way. She can support the teaching of ID but not as an alternative to Evolution, but I bet it's just a bone thrown to the religious nuts.
 
Greg Burch: You are aware, that there is already a precedence ruling saying, that ID is indeed promoting religion? It was not yet put into revision, AFAIK, but I am also not sure if revision was possible in the case.
 
Greg Burch: You are aware, that there is already a precedence ruling saying, that ID is indeed promoting religion? It was not yet put into revision, AFAIK, but I am also not sure if revision was possible in the case.

I don't know what "put into revision" means, but I'm aware that there are a number of state court rulings on the subject, some of them from appellate courts. I know about these because I helped pay for the lawyers who secured these rulings.

So what were you trying to tell me about these cases? ;)

EDIT: I was being a smart a*s: I'm also aware there are federal court -- including SCOTUS -- decisions on point:

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/5690_10_significant_court_decisions_2_15_2001.asp

The most recent of the latter, though, is quite old. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
 
So what were you trying to tell me about these cases? ;)

Actually only, that the case of bringing ID into schools is legally defined as bringing religion into school. So, there is no real discussion about what it means to promote it as equal alternative to evolution. You can't be for constitution and violate it in the same turn.

Your post left the chance open, that there could be a legal way for ID to enter the school system, but actually, that is pretty unlikely - even if the proponents argue against it, ID is religion per definition of many courts, who used a standard legal test on it, as far as I understand the articles about the court decisions.

The most recent of the latter, though, is quite old. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

Yeah, who forgets the errors of the past is doomed to repeat them.
 
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