Discussion A REAL Delta Glider (well, almost)

francisdrake

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While it would be thrilling to have a kind of 'realistic DeltaGlider', a basic question shall be answered first:
- Shall it be an 'atomic space plane', regardless of radiation issues?
- Or shall it be a winged spaceplane for a crew of 5, with a more plausible background?

For the first option you may find quite a lot engine options at the Atomic Rocket page. Unfortunately none of them can be called 'clean' by todays standards.

If it be a winged spaceplane I would have a look at the concepts of the Space Launch Initative of the early 2000s. The most promising concepts of this time where 2 or 1 1/2 stage vehicles, for example with winged boosters capable of automatically flying back to the launch site.
 

T.Neo

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Ok, I'm tired of people denouncing nuclear propulsion offhand.

As I said, the radiation is not an issue if dealt with properly, and a solid-core nuclear rocket is perfectly clean (i.e. releases very minimal to no fallout) if constructed correctly.

Chemical and/or airbreathing propulsion does not have the same physical potential as nuclear propulsion. It is that simple.

Hydrolox offers the best exhaust velocity, but hydrogen is so un-dense that you end up with a huge propellant tank; even with a (nuclear) exhaust velocity around twice that of chemical, the hydrogen tanks still make up a very large amount of the airframe.

Airbreathing schemes, such as SCRAM propulsion, run into problems with atmospheric heating on the way to orbit. This requires advanced materials technology and even active cooling.

Once the spacecraft is broken up, into fly-back stages and whatnot, complexity balloons... you are now operating two different vehicles, and more than one kind of vehicle. That they all have to carry their own systems for flight, landing, etc, outweigh any advantages of reusability.
 

Wishbone

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Okay, let's assume you are a benevolent dictator and range/contamination safety is not an issue. By how much solid core design should be made lighter to enable an SSTO? Or, alternatively, what should be the working temperature that advanced materials should withstand, to get a higher Isp?
 

T.Neo

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Okay, let's assume you are a benevolent dictator and range/contamination safety is not an issue.

Range/contamination safety is not an issue, because in reality engines are not designed and built by chimpanzees in hard-hats. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

Still, if you are a benevolent dictator, you can get past the problem of OMG-nuclear-its-bad-do-not-want-NIMBY-NIMBY-NIMBY!

By how much solid core design should be made lighter to enable an SSTO? Or, alternatively, what should be the working temperature that advanced materials should withstand, to get a higher Isp?

If it has similar attributes as DUMBO, it already has a thrust/weight that makes taking off from a runway possible. The engines are heavy, but are a vital component to the operation of the spacecraft; their mass should not be prohibitative.

I'm honestly not sure how much the ISP could be increased by improving the materials and design; I'm not entirely sure but I think a large portion of it is dependant on increasing the temperature of the propellant.
 
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Sky Captain

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While radiation can be dealt with problem is it will make operations more expensive so it would be better to have big performance margin over chemically powered launchers to make up for increased operational costs with high payload capacity and high flight rate.

Ideally for nuclear spaceplane you would want airbreathing engine powered by nuclear heat instead of chemical combustion. Imagine taking off from a runway and accelerating to 4 - 5 km/s in airbreathing mode without any expenditure of onboard propellant switching to rocket mode only for final orbital insertion burn. Theoretically such craft could have most of its takoff weight be useful cargo.
Unfortunately engine with recquired performance and durability probably doesn't exist even on a conceptual paper.
 

T.Neo

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While radiation can be dealt with problem is it will make operations more expensive so it would be better to have big performance margin over chemically powered launchers to make up for increased operational costs with high payload capacity and high flight rate.

The advantage lies in the improved mass ratios and propellant volumes.

This craft (currently) lacks a payload capability, but that doesn't mean that a similar concept could not have a payload capability.

Ideally for nuclear spaceplane you would want airbreathing engine powered by nuclear heat instead of chemical combustion. Imagine taking off from a runway and accelerating to 4 - 5 km/s in airbreathing mode without any expenditure of onboard propellant switching to rocket mode only for final orbital insertion burn. Theoretically such craft could have most of its takoff weight be useful cargo.
Unfortunately engine with recquired performance and durability probably doesn't exist even on a conceptual paper.

Yeah, the problem with that is, (at least, as I imagine) the fact that it's more difficult to heat air going through an engine than it is to heat liquid propellant.

There have already been studies on nuclear powered aircraft, and they were unsuccessful.

In addition to that, speeding up to 4.5-5 km/s within the atmosphere gives you the same problem as a chemical scramjet (atmospheric heating etc).
 
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Axel

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T.neo wrote
"and during a forseeable accident, no radioactive material should be released- during the Rover tests, an engine was destructively tested with no release of radioactive material"

How strong was the test? I mean a test under real conditions, a crash of the plane into ground with 333m/s (mach1) and more! Or if its glows/burns up at a bad reentry! The complet reactor would be go to thousands or particles, including the radioactive materials contaminating our atmosphere. If somebody says "thats no problem or harmless" i say hes a lyer, sorry!

Do understand me right, im a big fan of nuclear engines too, but not primary for earth! A nuclear thermal engine is more simple than a chemical engine and has a mutch lower service cycle. We need a solution for the whole earth, not a shuttle which flyes only 3-4 times per year like space shuttle now. IF we use it on mass, it would crash sometimes, and check plane crash-sides from 1950 to present. Theres no country whitout it, and we had contaminated aereas around the world! If you say "very small radiation only", what would you say, when you inhale this into your lung and get cancer?
For a shuttle to explore mars, titan or later maybe a extrasolar planet, its perfect. Because we only need a working fluid, any gass we can find in atmospheres. And we can use it with a precooler from skylon or liquidizer. When to slow for getting it in flight, we do it just some hours before start and the vehikel stands at ground of a strange planet and fill its tanks. In flight we produce maybe some extra fuel. Scramjets needs alltime oxygen in the air minimum.

Here my config for XR1 to getting orbit without nuclear!
EmptyMass=12000.0
MainTankCapacity=32800.0
ScramTankCapacity=3700.0
RCSTankCapacity=600.0
ISP 4500

And thats not unrealistic, i calculated a tank capacity for 32,8mT! I used the mesh from space shuttle ET with its 720mT fuel for a comparing calculation for the DG. 12mT empty mass are possible too, when we use carbon/composite materiels, like used at SpaceShipTwo. I reached LEO of 400x400km with enough fuel left for a deorbit burn. Dont compare its density with Space shuttle's conservative technology 30 years old. The Space shuttle is like an flying stone with some aluminium upper side.

I go with you, when we use a nuclear shuttle for LEO only very limited, for only some missions, strongly controled by leader ships or military, with a flight path not over life zones, start/landing at old atomic test sides. That minimizes the crash/accident risk enormous. Ofcourse our exploration shuttle for other atmospheric planets/moons could lift itself for a rendevous with its mothership in LEO.
So please build this nuclear shuttle, but dont call it a "resolution for everbody".
 
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T.Neo

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How strong was the test? I mean a test under real conditions, a crash of the plane into ground with 333m/s (mach1) and more! Or if its glows/burns up at a bad reentry! The complet reactor would be go to thousands or particles, including the radioactive materials contaminating our atmosphere. If somebody says "thats no problem or harmless" i say hes a lyer, sorry!

Uh... I do not doubt NASA's destructive testing methods, nor do I doubt the integrity of the nuclear fuel elements inside the reactor.

A KIWI reactor was destructively tested to "simulate a fall from altitude". I don't know what that entails, particularly, but from the looks of this image, it looks pretty violent.

It isn't like people purposefully fly nuclear propelled spaceplanes into the ground at mach 1, either. :rolleyes:

Furthermore the risk of radioactive material dispersing during a reentry accident is unlikely due to the fact that, well, the fuel elements are designed to work inside a rocket engine; they are designed to cope with high temperatures, because if they did not, they wouldn't work.

Do understand me right, im a big fan of nuclear engines too, but not for earth! We need a solution for the whole earth, not a shuttle which flyes only 3-4 times per year like space shuttle now. IF we use it on mass, it would crash sometimes, and check plane crash-sides from 1950. Theres no country whitout it, and we had contaminated aereas around the world! If you say "very small radiation only", what would you say, when you inhale this into your lung and get cancer?
For a shuttle to explore mars, titan or later maybe a extrasolar planet, its perfect. Because we only need a working fluid, any gass we can find in atmospheres. And we can use it with a precooler from skylon or liquidizer. When to slow for getting it in flight, we do it just some hours before start and the vehikel stand at ground of the strange planet and fill its tanks. Inflight we produce maybe some extra fuel. Scramjets needs alltime oxygen in the air minimum.

I'm not going to try to respond to that; your paragraph doesn't make sense, and if it does, I cannot find out where.

After I have explained over, and over, and over again, why nuclear propulsion is safer than you think, you put forth an argument that has more in common with OMG-nuclear-its-bad-do-not-want-NIMBY-NIMBY-NIMBY! than any particular scientific example(s).

In this case of NIMBY, the back yard is Earth.

Here my config for XR1 to getting orbit without nuclear!
EmptyMass=12000.0
MainTankCapacity=32800.0
ScramTankCapacity=3700.0
RCSTankCapacity=600.0
ISP 4500

And thats not unrealistic, i calculated a tank capacity for 32,8mT! 12mT empty mass are possible to, when we use carbon/composite materiels, like used at SpaceShipTwo. I reached LEO of 400x400km with enough fuel for a deorbit burn left. Dont compare its density with Space shuttle conservative technologoe 30 years old. The Space shuttle is like an flying stone with some aluminium upper side.

The "XR1" part is the problem, not the "nuclear" part. It's an XR1, for crying out loud, and at risk of insulting Martin/Doug/Donamy/Roger "Flying Tiger" Long, it isn't the most realistic vessel ever. I don't care how much you mess around with the exhaust velocities.

With that mass the craft is less dense than STS (which has most of it's volume taken up by a payload bay), and you will never fit that amount of fuel into a Delta Glider, even if it was slush hydrogen.
 
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Grover

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i dont think youll find a realistic DG, since our technology is nowhere near good enough for a single stage craft that small, the shuttles used as much fuel as a whole DG itself to get up to LEO, just imagine how dense the fuel must have to be to fit it INTO a DG.

the only source of energy (as a physicist will tell you) is nuclear, as nothing has that much chemical energy AND is abundant enough to be used as fuel.

id say give up finding a chemical alternative, youll need to go nuclear for this one (whether the politicians like it or not)
 

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@T.Neo
Under KIWI we can find:
"The safety experiment was designed to obtain basic reactor shutdown information for use in predicting the behavior of nuclear rocket reactors under a wide range of accident conditions."

There is no word about radioactiv fall out, that not automaticly means there is none! It was an military project and these telling us most: mainly made for effeciency. They used uranium ammunition in wars, its ofcourse clean :lol: ! Its very clever for getting funding when they dont tell about radioactiviy or dangers. Think alone about the fact, that all KIWI tests was done behind big stone walls, with automatic support trains and distance-remote-controled. Because EVERY fission reactor produces radioactiv end-products and contaminates its surrounding materials. If there is an explosion or accident, this materials gets free, flying around you! If you dont believe that, than be a test person for it! I will be the first person who visits you with an Geiger counter and i will pay you one million when i not find radioactivity at your body.

When we use nuclear thermal shuttles, we have to remove the produced radioactiv materials all times, to minimze the contamination, if accident or not. The fuels (uranium) ARE radiotiv before using inside the rocket too, so an accident would all times contaminate the envoirenment, sometimes stronger, sometimes lower.

For the XR1, i did a calculation, i did not guess!!! Yes Shuttles density is most a payload bay, but XR1s's density is most a tank, because the crew section is only very small. Dont imagine it with flux generators or other toys, imagine it as an empty tank behind crew section! Then you get 32,8 mT. When its not enough for you, then we use just a bigger DG with a bigger tank. The Isp of 4500m/s is STS-value. So i cant find where there is the cheating part.
 
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Frogisis

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I think it's also safe to assume that in a world with the infrastructure (and economic demand) that could realistically support this kind of craft, there'd already be a kind of "nuclear fire department" that could minimize the damage and distribute drugs to the people exposed in case there's some kind of accident - It's not set in stone how vulnerable to radiation people have to be. Even if were, you could still just hire some skilled PR firm and an army of lobbyists to fool people into thinking it's not dangerous and just something liberals made up to hurt business.
 
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T.Neo

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There is no word about radioactiv fall out, that not automaticly means there is none! It was an military project and these telling us most: mainly made for effeciency. They used uranium ammunition in wars, its ofcourse clean ! Its very clever for getting funding when they dont tell about radioactiviy or dangers. Think alone about the fact, that all KIWI tests was done behind big stone walls, with automatic support trains and distance-remote-controled.

So are you suggesting that KIWI was the subject of a military conspiracy/coverup, "because it was a military project"? :facepalm:

They are not morons. Believe it or not, they don't want the radioactivity either; the uranium in those DU rounds, is not highly radioactive... it is dangerous because it is actually a toxic metal.

Because EVERY fission reactor produces radioactiv end-products and contaminates its surrounding materials. If there is an explosion or accident, this materials gets free, flying around you! If you dont believe that, than be a test person for it! I will be the first person who visits you with an Geiger counter and i will pay you one million when i not find radioactivity at your body.

Yes, it is true that neutron radiation creates radioactivity in exposed materials due to transmutation.

This is however both not as intense, nor as spreadable in the environment as you assume. Remember those fuel elements I was talking about? Only a small amount of them is actual fuel and reaction products... most of it is containment and other stuff (like neutron reflectors or moderators or somesuch). And all that stuff, is the stuff that is designed to survive inside a rocket engine. It's also the stuff you're talking about that gets transmuted. And the other parts of the engine, are also designed to be, well, rocket engine parts. They aren't going to spread into fine dust that coats a 500 kilometer radius.

In case you didn't notice, when rocket parts are flying around you, you won't care if they're radioactive or not. Partially because you'll be dead. :rolleyes:

When we use nuclear thermal shuttles, we have to remove the produced radioactiv materials all times, to minimze the contamination, if accident or not. The fuels (uranium) ARE radiotiv before using inside the rocket too, so an accident would all times contaminate the envoirenment, sometimes stronger, sometimes lower.

Yeah, that's why you swap out the old fuel elements with new ones, so the waste can be processed and the fuel recycled.

The uranium itself is mildly radioactive, compared to the reaction products etc etc. So before activation, the nuclear reactor is quite mundane.

But it does not matter as much as you assume. This is because nuclear reactors are not made of plasticene. :rolleyes:

For the XR1, i did a calculation, i did not guess!!! Yes Shuttles density is most a payload bay, but XR1s's density is most a tank, because the crew section is only very small. Dont imagine it with flux generators or other toys, imagine it as an empty tank behind crew section! Then you get 32,8 mT. When its not enough for you, then we use just a bigger DG with a bigger tank. The Isp of 4500m/s is STS-value. So i cant find where there is the cheating part.
12-13-10 01:04

I would not call the crew section of the DG "very small". It is actually quite large.

Yes the XR1 is mostly a tank, and the shuttle is mostly a payload bay, but it ends up being quite similar... the volume taken up by payload bay and propellant tank is probably proportionally similar; indeed, the crew section is proportionally much larger than that of STS.

Also, do not accuse me of guessing. After modelling an internal fuel tank, to fit in the DG and presumably accomodate the other internals (engines, SCRAMs, hovers... wait... why are there hover engines in a spaceplane?), and doing a density calculation, it turns out you can only carry 3.86 metric tons of LH2, and around 4.2 tons of slush H2.

So yeah... ain't gonna work. Unless you use a flux generator to compress it into neutron star material. :facepalm:


EDIT:

think it's also safe to assume that in a world with the infrastructure (and economic demand) that could realistically support this kind of craft, there'd already be a kind of "nuclear fire department" that could minimize the damage and distribute drugs to the people exposed in case there's some kind of accident - It's not set in stone how vulnerable to radiation people have to be.

Yeah, something like that already exists in some form, if we look at how NASA cleaned up the shuttle disasters, and various military activities... I would not be surprised if military efforts in such an event would be helpful.

Nevertheless I think that the potential for civillian harm can somewhat be overestimated, especially if launching over the ocean or unpopulated areas.

Even if were, you could still just hire some skilled PR firm and an army of lobbyists to fool people into thinking it's not dangerous and just something liberals made up to hurt business.

Which is fine until you get wikileaked. :p
 
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Wishbone

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Now, can we get back to the scheduled programming, re: sizing and mission profile.

What endurance shall it have? (Had Mars common assumptions document lying somewhere, guess it may help in mass estimation).
 

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Assumptions spreadsheet

This attached spreadsheet may be helpful.
 

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T.Neo

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What endurance shall it have? (Had Mars common assumptions document lying somewhere, guess it may help in mass estimation).

What do you mean by endurance? Stay on-orbit?

I've made mass provision for supplies (air, food and water) for 20 days, though I'm not sure what a typical mission length would be.

dV with the main engines is supposed to be 12 000 m/s. Orbital velocity is 7500 m/s and a normal dV to LEO is 9500-10 000m/s, but I wanted to include an extra capability for atmospheric losses, etc.

On-orbit OMS dV is supposed to be ~300m/s, though fitting the RCS/OMS onto the vessel is going to be tough with my mass requirements.

I was considering adding (potentially precooled) turboramjets to the craft, to utilize both airbreathing propulsion on ascent and potentially allow more takeoff flexibility. The engines do become parasitic mass for the rest of the flight (unlike with Skylon's double-use design), but the use of nuclear propulsion offsets that. Unfortunately I won't be able to work them in to my current mass requirements.

Wishbone, I wasn't able to open your document. :shrug:
 

T.Neo

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Do you have a spreadsheet program?

Microsoft Works Spreadsheet, though it didn't like to cooperate. :dry:
 

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Ok T.Neo, im looking forward to your new shuttle!!! I will fly it ofcourse, but not from KSC :), because of knowed reasons.
I reconfigured the Resolve to an NTR/LANTR craft last days, it flys great! Needs no boosters or extra tanks. With a refill in LEO it flys to mars alone and glides dreamfull through mars's atmosphere. The hovers are chemical but very strong, for a landing without runway. Should not be unrealistic. I set Isp to 8800m/s and Fuel mass to 540 mT. Thats lesser than a STS-ET (720mT), and this size you can easy hide inside this big bird, without using the payload bay for it!

What do you mean with your ramjets, they heating the incoming air by the NTR engine?
 

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The safest ascent trajectory would be over an ocean. Suppose taking off from French spaceport in Kourou and then fly whole ascent to the east over Atlantic ocean. If something goes wrong and there is crash the reactor core will sink thousands of meters deep and remain there forever. Water is very good radiation shield and I think fuel elements of such reactor would be highly resistant against corrosion so it won't corode in water and even if it would the amount of radioactivity such slowly coroding reactor could add to already existing natural bacground radiation of ocean water probably would be barely measurable.

If we start to freak out about possibility of reactor core sinking to the ocean bottom then we should also immediatly ban all oil tankers because there is possibility of oil spill and thousands of tons of oil can do far more environmental damage than sunken few dozen kg of solid nuclear fuel.
 
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